Mid Term Report Cards

[Torence]

Hello Brothers-
Illinois is approaching 6 months since the installation of GL
Officers; and, it has been proposed to develop mid term report cards
for the various officers inlcuding Grand Lecturers and District
Deputies. Without dealing with the hair raising -"er" cards for the
higher echelon, the following generic points from the DDGM score cards
are suggested. The GL score cards are also worth noting.
For the DDGMs, what other, or more specific, points do you think
should be raised so that these Brothers can better serve our lodges?
Mid-Term Report Card
DDGM
☌ Have you conducted any District Meetings?
If so, how many and when?
What topics were discussed?
List any notable changes or new benefits realized for lodge
operation that resulted.
☌ Have you conducted any District Dinners or other social events for
the Brothers?
If so, how many and when?
List any anecdotal information that you would like to share with
those who did not
attend.
☌ Have you conducted any District Events for Non-Masons and Friends of
the
Fraternity?
If so, how many?
Were any new petitions were received from these events?
☌ Have you attended any lodge in your district, other than your own,
during a special
meeting?
If so, how many and when?
☌ Did you participate, other than a sideliner in degrees, in lodges
other than your own?
If so, how many and when?
☌ Have you attended any Installation of Officers in your district?
If so, how many and when?
Were any of these Installation of Officers public?
☌ Did you assist any lodge, other than your own, in an event?
If so, how many and when?
What were the nature of these events, fund raisers, family or
community gatherings,
etc.?
Note any anecdotal information that you would like to share with
those who did not
attend.
☌ How many of your lodges participate in the Grand Master’s Program?
Where are they at with their progress?
List Lodges and number of points earned.
☌ Did anything of a serious nature impede the harmony of any of your
lodges?
If so, who else in the fraternity did you notify?
What did you do to help the lodge recover from the upset?

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
secretary - Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 - Crete, Illinois
PM - Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 - Lansing, Illinois

[J. Bennie]

Post by Torence
Hello Brothers-
Illinois is approaching 6 months since the installation of GL
Officers; and, it has been proposed to develop mid term report cards

Proposed by whom?

Jim, Vancouver

[Rob Sandilands]

Post by J. Bennie

Post by Torence
Hello Brothers-
Illinois is approaching 6 months since the installation of GL
Officers; and, it has been proposed to develop mid term report cards

Proposed by whom?
Jim, Vancouver

... usually someone who has nothing better to do ...

[Torence]

Post by J. Bennie
Proposed by whom?

Sorry about the slow reply, I have been caught up at work too much
these last few weeks. What free time that I have had has been spent
either in Schools of Instruction or doing degrees. This morning, for
instance, I have a Disrict School in the morning, then have to work
afterwards 3PM-11PM and again tomorrow 8AM-6PM.
It has been further proposed, aside from the Report Cards in
Illinois, to form a Leadership Council of sitting Masters and Wardens
to advise Grand Masters better than our retirees. As such a Leadership
Council has never been in any part of a Grand Master's program, the
one that is operating loosely now is self appointed and impromptu. I
am neither a sitting Master nor a Warden; but I think that legislating
a constitutional council this October from the floor to be an
improvement to what we were given in the twentieth century.
This particular notion of theirs intrigues me; but I also wonder
what form it should take.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Secretary - Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 - Crete, Illinois
PM - Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 - Lansing, Illinois

[Dave Vick, PM]

In article

Post by J. Bennie
Proposed by whom?

Sorry about the slow reply,...[*snip*]
It has been further proposed, aside from the Report Cards in
Illinois, to form a Leadership Council of sitting Masters and Wardens
to advise Grand Masters better than our retirees....[*more snippage*]

With all due respect, you still have not answered Bro. Jim's
question...

Who, specifically, has proposed the mid-term report cards?

[J. Bennie]

Post by Dave Vick, PM
With all due respect, you still have not answered Bro. Jim's
question...

Funny, isn't it?

Jim, Vancouver

[Torence]

Post by J. Bennie

With  all due respect, you still have not answered Bro. Jim's
question...

Funny, isn't it?
Jim, Vancouver

I thought that I had. The Report Card idea is not mine. Neither is
the Leadership Council. I first heard of both of these ideas following
a Secretary's Workshop in West Chester 2/27; and then I was sent the
questionaire from a Brother from Neighbor Lodge. Both thoughts seem to
me to be good ones at first glance; but both need development,
definition and most importantly. IMHO, a clear purpose.
Other Brothers tend to send me a few notions to put-up before Grand
lodge around this time of year as they are due in Illinois 90 Days
before the session. I have already submitted a proposal to revise our
Article 8 so that a non-resident of Illinois can become a Grand Lodge
Officer (The John Robert Thomas Code), and have before me a new one to
delete Codes 284, which requires a "fixed abode" for a candidate.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Secretary - Auburn Park No. 789 - Crete, Illinois
PM - Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 - Lansing, Illinois

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Torence
I have already submitted a proposal to revise our
Article 8 so that a non-resident of Illinois can become a Grand Lodge
Officer (The John Robert Thomas Code),

Since ritual instructors are GL officers in Illinois I would almost
perfer they be removed from the list of GL officers. On the other hand
if a brother who lives just across the border but is a member of an
Illinois lodge wants to move through the grand line I do get the point.
Grand lodge officers need to be a member of a lodge in the jurisdiction
and within the cable tow of their lodge. It's a difference between
being a resident of the state (Illinois) and a resident of the
jusidiction (within 50 miles of a member lodge).

Post by Torence
and have before me a new one to
delete Codes 284, which requires a "fixed abode" for a candidate.

When I read the Illinois code I concluded this was to exclude homeless
men who would drain lodges of their funds.

I take it this is to allow military members from Illinois who do not
maintain a residence in Illinois while on active duty deployed elsewhere?

[Torence]

Post by Doug Freyburger
When I read the Illinois code I concluded this was to exclude homeless
men who would drain lodges of their funds.

Originally, this Code was designed to prevent Illinois from invading
the jurisdiction of another state by accepting sojourners as
candidates.

Post by Doug Freyburger
I take it this is to allow military members from Illinois who do not
maintain a residence in Illinois while on active duty deployed elsewhere?

Men travel more liberally in this century then the nineteenth when
the restriction was imposed. More men own multiple houses as well. The
Code’s deletion is intended to gain us the flexibility to admit more
College students as Illinois now admits at 18.

Post by Doug Freyburger
Since ritual instructors are GL officers in Illinois I would almost
perfer they be removed from the list of GL officers.

When I am Grand Master, I will do away with Grand Lecturers, ADGMs,
AADGMS, & DDGMs all together.

Post by Doug Freyburger
On the other hand
if a brother who lives just across the border but is a member of an
Illinois lodge wants to move through the grand line I do get the point.

The limitation was originally imposed after the Grand Mastership of
John Robert Thomas who was a US Congressman at the time of his
ascension to the Grand East. J.R. Thomas was not in Illinois at all
during his year and actually lived with his sister in Indiana when he
wasn’t in DC. His DGM, Alex Darrah then operated in his capacity just
as the Earl of Moria did as the Premier Grand Lodge’s Acting Grand
Master in the late eighteenth century. Moria’s work was used to
justify the purely popular and political appointment of M.W. Bro.
Thomas.
Alex Darrah was a very stern and opinionated GM whose decisions were
later revisited and revised. In one of these famous cases which I
wrote about here before, (my apologies to the regular readers)... the
Crum Case. M.W. Bro. Darrah sought to expel a Lodge Master for Atheism
when he published a tract entitled “Believe or be Damned,” in which
that Lodge Master questioned the word of the V.S.L. W. Bro. Crum was
Master of Vienna Lodge #150 which happens to also be the home Lodge of
our current GM, Rick Swaney. The Crum Case, and its reversal by one of
our “Great” GMs, IMHO, Brig. General John Corson Smith, proves that in
Illinois an agnostic, even an atheist, under certain circumstances can
be a Master Mason.
The prohibition in Article 8 was intended to prevent an absent Master
Mason from holding nothing more than the title of office, while
another is at work as the actor. The condition, IMHO is a good
provision, but this particular approach has always been cumbersome for
the purpose and one that misses the mark. I would prefer a new
condition that Illinois eliminates all Brevet or Honorary titling.
Masonry is all about work and freely Titling Brevet members works
against our characteristic respect for work.
FYI, Alex Darrah also had a son, D.D. Darrah who also rose to the
Grand East and his son proved to be, IMHO, a much more proficient GM.
Just so that you don’t get the wrong impression of J.R. Thomas, he was
known in Congress as the father of the Steamship Navy. Later, he
traveled to Indian Territory and had much to do with the organization
of the State of Oklahoma. In 1914, though, he was killed there in a
Prison Break. A friend to First People at a time when Native Americans
got little respect, he was in the Prison taking testimony from once of
his clients when three men tried to escape. M.W. Bro. Thomas,
unfortunately, was killed in the attack.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Secretary-Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No. 1138-Lansing, Illinois

[KIV11]

Post by Torence
When I am Grand Master, I will do away with Grand Lecturers, ADGMs,
AADGMS, & DDGMs all together.

It would appear that Bro. Torence plans to run his Grand Lodge all by
himself. This would seem to make a "mid-term report card" a very easy
document to complete during his term in the Grand East. :)

George K..

[Torence]

Post by KIV11
It would appear that Bro. Torence plans to run his Grand Lodge all by
himself. This would seem to make a "mid-term report card" a very easy
document to complete during his term in the Grand East. :)

What would King Solomon do?
O.K. so maybe it would be that that analogy should reference Moses
banishing the golden calf; but it sure beats the alternative. I would
not wish to be like the Sergeant-Major from the Meaning of Life
marching alone up and down the square.
Funny ha-ha or Funny Hmmm?
Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Secretary – Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois

[Dave Vick, PM]

In article

Post by Torence

Post by J. Bennie

With  all due respect, you still have not answered Bro. Jim's
question...

Funny, isn't it?

I thought that I had. The Report Card idea is not mine. Neither is
the Leadership Council. I first heard of both of these ideas following
a Secretary's Workshop in West Chester 2/27; and then I was sent the
questionaire from a Brother from Neighbor Lodge. Both thoughts seem to
me to be good ones at first glance; but both need development,
definition and most importantly. IMHO, a clear purpose.

So to be clear, the ideas were perhaps not yours but you submitted the
proposals?

That's all Jim asked for, I think; a clear answer.

[Torence]

Post by Dave Vick, PM
In article

Post by J. Bennie

With  all due respect, you still have not answered Bro. Jim's
question...

Funny, isn't it?

   I thought that I had. The Report Card idea is not mine. Neither is
the Leadership Council. I first heard of both of these ideas following
a Secretary's Workshop in West Chester 2/27; and then I was sent the
questionaire from a Brother from Neighbor Lodge. Both thoughts seem to
me to be good ones at first glance; but both need development,
definition and most importantly. IMHO, a clear purpose.

So to be clear, the ideas were perhaps not yours but you submitted the
proposals?
That's all Jim asked for, I think; a clear answer.
--
Dave Vick, PM
Lansing #33, Michigan
(somewhere on tour in the USA)

Nothing has been submitted. Our session is in October and any
legislation is not due until 90 Days before that. But the formation of
a Leadership Council with a grading system for Grand Lodge Officials
does not necessarily require legislation. Like a Masonic Discussion
Group, it can be formed anytime. However, should such a group evolve
with the intention that it represent something of the voice of the
lodges, then it cannot be self appointed. A mandate is needed.
IMHO, the lodges in Illinois at this time are enjoying realtive
peace and prosperity. It would be better that if we are going to have
a constitutional council that it be formed during this sort of period,
than be formed for reactionary motives should we elect some future
trouble.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Secretary - Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 - Crete, Illinois
PM - Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 - Lansing, Illinois

[KIV11]

Post by Torence
It would be better that if we are going to have
a constitutional council that it be formed during this sort of period,
than be formed for reactionary motives should we elect some future
trouble.

Bro. Torence, prior to your taking the obligation of Installed Master
didn't you have to signify your assent to certain ancient Charges and
Regulations, one of which is that "you admit that it is not in the
power of any man, or body of men, to make innovations in the body of
Masonry without the consent of Grand Lodge?"

With all due respect, it would appear that, from the tone of some of
your posts here, you may have forgotten this regulation or are
searching for ways to circumvent it.

George K.

[Alan Schwartz]

Post by KIV11

Post by Torence
It would be better that if we are going to have
a constitutional council that it be formed during this sort of period,
than be formed for reactionary motives should we elect some future
trouble.

Bro. Torence, prior to your taking the obligation of Installed Master
didn't you have to signify your assent to certain ancient Charges and
Regulations, one of which is that "you admit that it is not in the
power of any man, or body of men, to make innovations in the body of
Masonry without the consent of Grand Lodge?"
With all due respect, it would appear that, from the tone of some of
your posts here, you may have forgotten this regulation or are
searching for ways to circumvent it.

I think (and have always thought) that this rather begs the question
of what constitutes the "body of Masonry".

(In Illinois, btw, that ancient charge is given in the WM's obligation as
being unconditional -- that is, without the phrase "without the consent
of the Grand Lodge", and I consider the loss of that phrase to be an
unfortunate innovation -- possibly in the body of Masonry. :)

- Alan

[Torence]

Post by KIV11
Bro. Torence, prior to your taking the obligation of Installed Master
didn't you have to signify your assent to certain ancient Charges and
Regulations, one of which is that "you admit that it is not in the
power of any man, or body of men, to make innovations in the body of
Masonry without the consent of Grand Lodge?"
With all due respect, it would appear that, from the tone of some of
your posts here, you may have forgotten this regulation or are
searching for ways to circumvent it.

The whole of the statement in Illinois is, "You admit that it is not
in the power of any man, or body of men, to make innovations in the
body of Masonry?” I took that obligation back in 1993; and I suppose
that to this day that I do admit that no man or body of men can
introduce innovations into our club. But a fully vested Master Mason
or group of Master Masons are and have always been so empowered.
But there is nothing in my posts that could be enumerated as
innovations. My notions are more of a restoration of the conditions of
the past, plans for Masonry that worked better than the innovations of
later generations. If you take “the body of Masonry” to mean the work,
then I would welcome the undoing of the conditions the render our
work, well, standard.
Our Illinois work was brought to us by our first Grand Lecturer at
Large, Levi Lusk. He was tasked to attend the Baltimore convention but
did not make it. Instead he met up with the Missouri delegation when
they returned. He then learned what he could in the month that he was
in St. Louis; and brought what he knew of the work to us. Eighteen
years later, corrections to it were proposed to be made following the
visit to Chicago by M.W. Bro. Robert Morris of Kentucky and his
exhibition of work that was supposedly more true to that discussed in
Baltimore. (The Committee on work in Baltimore never concurred in the
work. The delegate on the committee from New York balked at the
alterations to the 2nd and 3rd degrees and would not consent to them).
Two groups grew up, the Overseers of the Work and the Conservator’s
Association arguing for either the Morris Trestle board or Lusk-Barney-
Luce work. Past Grand Masters and the Lodges were divided and when the
Grand Secretary managed to get a new Grand Master into office and
expel the proponents of the Morris work, including three PGMS, the
District Deputy and Grand Lecturer Systems were introduced in order to
enforce the Lusk work.
As late as the 1880’s, in Illinois, a Master Mason could see a
variety of work done in Illinois lodges, even other languages. The
static ritual method has robbed us of much color and complexity and
has rendered the work poor, IMHO, and unsuitable for twenty-first
century Masons.
Grand Lecturers and DDGMs work for the Grand Masters who commission
them. Too many work for themselves. Part of their job is to stifle the
voice of the Rightful Lodges they oversee, from time to time, and for
one purpose or another of a man, albeit that he is a Master Mason. The
proper voice should be the Principle Officers who should not be made
to remain silent throughout the year and then cast their lost in with
the masses for a brief annual moment.
Such a set of circumstances was never the Original Plan of
Freemasonry. We will work better and more harmoniously were we without
them.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Secretary – Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois

[R***@hotmail.com]

Post by Torence

Post by KIV11
Bro. Torence, prior to your taking the obligation of Installed Master
didn't you have to signify your assent to certain ancient Charges and
Regulations, one of which is that "you admit that it is not in the
power of any man, or body of men, to make innovations in the body of
Masonry without the consent of Grand Lodge?"
With all due respect, it would appear that, from the tone of some of
your posts here, you may have forgotten this regulation or are
searching for ways to circumvent it.

The whole of the statement in Illinois is, "You admit that it is not
in the power of any man, or body of men, to make innovations in the
body of Masonry?” I took that obligation back in 1993; and I suppose
that to this day that I do admit that no man or body of men can
introduce innovations into our club.

The additional words quoted above "without the consent of Grand Lodge"
are important - they do in effect allow a body of men to introduce
innovations. (I would not describe Freemasonry as a Club, but that is
not relevant to discussio of innovation). Some jurisdictions may of
course leave those words out; where I am the words are "..except with
teh consent of the Grand Lodge", which has the same meaning.

Post by Torence
But a fully vested Master Mason
or group of Master Masons are and have always been so empowered.
But there is nothing in my posts that could be enumerated as
innovations. My notions are more of a restoration of the conditions of
the past, plans for Masonry that worked better than the innovations of
later generations. If you take “the body of Masonry” to mean the work,
then I would welcome the undoing of the conditions the render our
work, well, standard.

One man's minor change may be anotehrs anothers breaking of a
landmark. Standardisation has been desirable in some cases to
preserve teh good reputation of the Craft - for example some
jurisdictions have amended the penalties referred to in obligations -
and too little guidance can lead to a demeaning of the ritual. Even
with 'standardisation', there are some 'interesting' lodge customs
(often described as the collected errors of past Directors of
Ceremony).

Post by Torence
Our Illinois work was brought to us by our first Grand Lecturer at
Large, Levi Lusk. He was tasked to attend the Baltimore convention but
did not make it. Instead he met up with the Missouri delegation when
they returned. He then learned what he could in the month that he was
in St. Louis; and brought what he knew of the work to us. Eighteen
years later, corrections to it were proposed to be made following the
visit to Chicago by M.W. Bro. Robert Morris of Kentucky and his
exhibition of work that was supposedly more true to that discussed in
Baltimore. (The Committee on work in Baltimore never concurred in the
work. The delegate on the committee from New York balked at the
alterations to the 2nd and 3rd degrees and would not consent to them).
Two groups grew up, the Overseers of the Work and the Conservator’s
Association arguing for either the Morris Trestle board or Lusk-Barney-
Luce work. Past Grand Masters and the Lodges were divided and when the
Grand Secretary managed to get a new Grand Master into office and
expel the proponents of the Morris work, including three PGMS, the
District Deputy and Grand Lecturer Systems were introduced in order to
enforce the Lusk work.
As late as the 1880’s, in Illinois, a Master Mason could see a
variety of work done in Illinois lodges, even other languages. The
static ritual method has robbed us of much color and complexity and
has rendered the work poor, IMHO, and unsuitable for twenty-first
century Masons.
Grand Lecturers and DDGMs work for the Grand Masters who commission
them. Too many work for themselves. Part of their job is to stifle the
voice of the Rightful Lodges they oversee, from time to time, and for
one purpose or another of a man, albeit that he is a Master Mason. The
proper voice should be the Principle Officers who should not be made
to remain silent throughout the year and then cast their lost in with
the masses for a brief annual moment.
Such a set of circumstances was never the Original Plan of
Freemasonry. We will work better and more harmoniously were we without
them.
Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Secretary – Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois

[Torence]

Post by R***@hotmail.com
One man's minor change may be anotehrs anothers breaking of a
landmark. Standardisation has been desirable in some cases to
preserve teh good reputation of the Craft - for example some
jurisdictions have amended the penalties referred to in obligations -
and too little guidance can lead to a demeaning of the ritual. Even
with 'standardisation', there are some 'interesting' lodge customs
(often described as the collected errors of past Directors of
Ceremony).

For the first time in my Masonic lifetime (25 years this September,
though my Grand Lodge only recognizes 23), we have a GM who was never
Chairman of the Board of Grand Examiners; and I think this a
particular good year to suggest that we change our situation. Though
we may spend another of these Masonic lifetimes realizing the benefits
of soughing off the old tacked on conditions.
Each of our previous GMs had to hold that position the year that
they were Senior Grand Deacon. The duty of that position is to
transmit the Standardized Ritual to the next Chairman. However, each
of them in the twentieth century made an alteration or two thinking
that they were entitled to that bit of immortality I suppose.
So, in Illinois we lost prayers and other ties and for those who
are interested in such things, research is then needed to pick up the
lost elements and their knowledge. For example, most of us know the
word for the pillar that denotes strength given in our second degree
instruction to the candidate. However, and I know that I have posted
this information here before, how many Brothers in Illinois also know
that the pillar was named for Solomon’s great-great-great-great-great
Grand father? And that he is the fellow who plucks off his shoe and
gives it to his neighbor in the first degree explanatory? Some Lodges
in Illinois used to educate our candidates on the story which explains
our particular affinity for the causes of widows and orphans which
were originally drawn out of articles 6 & 7 etc. of King John’s Great
Letter of 1215. The words that went with the grips were intended to be
meaningful to every Mason and in an examination, knowledge of this
story was used to identify cowans, yes, but to also to indicate to
what degree a brother had been educated.
Reading the proceedings, I can find no instance where this
Committee was given such a license. I do find where they promised
specifically that they would not become a college for Grand Line
Officers. And I know that the significance of the Local Lodge has been
horribly diminished over the years and I am confident that I will see
lodges take back control of the work so that these lost elements can
be restored.
So, to my Illinois Brothers I ask, are you satisfied with the state
of your lodges and the quality of the Masonic education that you are
allowed to give? Are you interested in attending schools where we
quibble over whether or not a SD can pull the VSL toward him before
illuminating it? Or would you rather see some of this old work made
new again? And by the way, just as an FYI Brother Rich, the penalties
have to do with the covenants that we make with T.G.A.O.T.U. and can
be found in the VSL. They are the directions for preparing an animal
for kosher or halal cooking and those that allegorically suffered them
were no more than brute animals themselves.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Secretary-Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois

[bobthecow]

  So, to my Illinois Brothers I ask, are you satisfied with the state
of your lodges and the quality of the Masonic education that you are
allowed to give? Are you interested in attending schools where we
quibble over whether or not a SD can pull the VSL toward him before
illuminating it? Or would you rather see some of this old work made
new again?

I wouldn't consider myself to be a particularly knowledgeable Brother,
but I can say that in my three years, it appears that more thought is
often given to politics and legacies than what is right for the
brothers affected. I also see a lot of choices which should reside
with the local Lodge being made by the Grand Lodge. It's already
getting a little old. But, I have high hopes for the future.

There certainly does seem to be a lot of emphasis placed on exactly
how the Junior Deacon opens the door!

-- Kevin Sweeney
-- Elgin Lodge No. 117, A.F & A.M. of Illinois

[Torence]

Post by bobthecow
There certainly does seem to be a lot of emphasis placed on exactly
how the Junior Deacon opens the door!

Good news. We have more for you in Freemasonry to feed your mind,
your body and your soul than endlessly dissecting the choreography.
Unfortunately, our current generation of instructors have been
restricted from teaching anything but the raw word and these minutias
of movement. I have been through the CLI School several times now and
am attending a class now. We are not allowed to provide color or
answer that vexatious question, “Why” if we are to keep our
certifications. Grand Lecturers and Grand Examiners also are
restricted from providing further light in or out of their capacity
without risking their commissions. IMHO, that condition leaves the
Local Lodges wanting.
Each time I have gone through these schools, however, I have refused
to take the examination. You may know our JGW. I took classes taught
by him with one other man who I still call Brother back in 2003.
Unfortunately, though he is more expert in the raw word and minute
movement of the work than I, our Grand Lodge successfully expelled him
five years ago for no tangible offense. He was inconvenient for that
Grand Master who only got a single year in office, and that Grand
Master thought it expedient to do so. (By the way, I am getting along
just fine with our JGW these days though we share this very serious
thing between us. Dynamically, we are a remarkable Brotherhood.)
When I started out there was no such creature in Illinois as a
Certified Lodge Instructor. Every lodge had a Past Master who was
their individual version of the Mason’s Mason. He usually posted each
candidate. He installed every Master. He was for all practical
purposes, the Lodge. He was the resource not only for instruction but
for the lodge history, and even the lore and fables of our club.
When the CLI position was introduced, along with it was legislation
that a Mason could not teach unless he was certified. This condition
has been sought by successive generations of Grand Line Officers to
wrestle control of the character of the individual lodge and make
lodges more uniform in nature. The legislation has been consistently
defeated, though it crops up again from time to time. A one size fits
all condition is a wrong condition for our club.
The best source for an explanation to what an Officer is doing
during the show, aside from reading the proceedings and thousands of
other volumes of material available in your local Masonic Library, is
either a place like this one here or at the dinner table before the
meeting. Of course, you are invited to my lodge anytime though it is a
bit of a drive for you. Feel free to invite Bill and Manish and even
your DDGM Tom if you like. We meet on the third Tuesdays for stated
and the first Tuesday either for school (Yeah, I am the Instructor) or
degree work. Crete meets on the 1st & 3rd Mondays opposite of your
nights. They are a particularly fine group of Masons whose Secretary
is also the Assistant Area Deputy Grand Master. If I know that you are
attending their lodge I and a few of my cohorts will join you. Crete
is neutral territory.
As for the JD work, it replaced the old emphasis on the Tyler’s
responsibilities. You will find that most Tyler positions in Illinois
receive a stipend in the lodge By-Laws because that Officer's role was
much larger in the workings of the lodge a few years back. Now, it has
been reduced to where many Brothers who are unfortunately, due to the
effects of age just a shadow of themselves, put there as an
honorarium. For a hint of the old workings let me tell you that any
knock used to be answered from within..but, by the Wardens... before
admittance. The old protocol assured for us better Lodge security.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Secretary-Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Torence

Post by bobthecow
There certainly does seem to be a lot of emphasis placed on exactly
how the Junior Deacon opens the door!

It gets fun after a bit, but it has little meaning other than fellowship
and team building.

Post by Torence
Good news. We have more for you in Freemasonry to feed your mind,
your body and your soul than endlessly dissecting the choreography.

Seek and ye shall find, ask and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be
opened unto you. Far more than the bits of that reference that appears
in the ritual. All of the rest of it are outside of the specified
standardized ritual.

Post by Torence
Unfortunately, our current generation of instructors have been
restricted from teaching anything but the raw word and these minutias
of movement. I have been through the CLI School several times now and
am attending a class now. We are not allowed to provide color or
answer that vexatious question, “Why” if we are to keep our
certifications.

There's a problem with that that ends up in my statements of the past -

"I've seen grand lecturers and certified instructors who know the ritual
word perfect but who can't explain its meaning to save their lives."

To an outside observer there is not distinction between "can't" and
"aren't allowed to". This policy literally leads young men to think the
ritual is gibberish because those who teach it don't know of any meaning
contained within it.

Post by Torence
Grand Lecturers and Grand Examiners also are
restricted from providing further light in or out of their capacity
without risking their commissions. IMHO, that condition leaves the
Local Lodges wanting.

Unless/until the policy is removed I will definitely not take any such
certification. I have far more interest in discussing the meaning than
in any amount of detail of foot placement during a march. And having
explained to the youngsters at refreshment after degrees the young guys
appreciate the ritual much more when some of the meanings are explained
to them.

Post by Torence
Each time I have gone through these schools, however, I have refused
to take the examination.

The brother who followed me through the line is working towards
certification as an instructor. One strange thing he has encountered is
none of the current instructors will answer his questions as to what
steps he needs to take to become certified. It makes them seem
profoundly unqualified if they aren't even able to say how they got
their own certifications. Yet they clearly know the ritual word for
word and step for step.

Post by Torence
When I started out there was no such creature in Illinois as a
Certified Lodge Instructor. Every lodge had a Past Master who was
their individual version of the Mason’s Mason.

I started in California. There there was an Officer's Coach who taught
ritual to the line officers and reported qualification for the chairs to
the Inspector, and there was a Candidate's Coach who posted the
candidates through their degrees. Both were appointed by the Master
with veto by the Inspector (DDGM).

Post by Torence
He usually posted each
candidate. He installed every Master. He was for all practical
purposes, the Lodge. He was the resource not only for instruction but
for the lodge history, and even the lore and fables of our club.

In my case we also discussed what it means.

Post by Torence
When the CLI position was introduced, along with it was legislation
that a Mason could not teach unless he was certified.

But this is a nearly meaningless rule, and it's one that "I will proceed
immediately to ignore". It applies to district meetings but not to
lodge practices. It's nice to have a certified instructor at a lodge
practice but if none are present the practice session happens anyways.

Post by Torence
This condition
has been sought by successive generations of Grand Line Officers to
wrestle control of the character of the individual lodge and make
lodges more uniform in nature. The legislation has been consistently
defeated, though it crops up again from time to time. A one size fits
all condition is a wrong condition for our club.

As far as Masonic Education goes I figure it just needs brothers who are
more interested in the meaning than in the word by word. Once I saw
that need I started filling that role.

Post by Torence
The best source for an explanation to what an Officer is doing
during the show, aside from reading the proceedings and thousands of
other volumes of material available in your local Masonic Library, is
either a place like this one here or at the dinner table before the
meeting.

Or read my ramblings in the articles I submit to Temple Topics most
months. ;^)

Fraternal regards,
Doug Freyburger
PM 2007-8 Arlington Heights 1162 Illinois AF&AM
PM 1999 Pasadena 272 California F&AM

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Torence
Unfortunately, our current generation of instructors have been
restricted from teaching anything but the raw word and these minutias
of movement. I have been through the CLI School several times now and
am attending a class now. We are not allowed to provide color or
answer that vexatious question, “Why” if we are to keep our
certifications.

There's a problem with that that ends up in my statements of the past -
"I've seen grand lecturers and certified instructors who know the ritual
word perfect but who can't explain its meaning to save their lives."
To an outside observer there is not distinction between "can't" and
"aren't allowed to". This policy literally leads young men to think the
ritual is gibberish because those who teach it don't know of any meaning
contained within it.

I discussed this last night with a brother going through his Grand
Lecturer certification. The restriction is specific - Certified
intructors in Illinois are to not answer why questions when they are
serving in their capacity as ritual instructors. The problem is when a
GL/CLI is acting in his capacity. It's at least the whole duration of a
district meeting that includes ritual instruction. Some of them never
address such questions.

Learning ritual does not take a certified instructor. Given this policy
I would rather not have one when a question about meaning comes up.

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Torence
Grand Lecturers and Grand Examiners also are
restricted from providing further light in or out of their capacity
without risking their commissions. IMHO, that condition leaves the
Local Lodges wanting.

Unless/until the policy is removed I will definitely not take any such
certification. I have far more interest in discussing the meaning than
in any amount of detail of foot placement during a march. And having
explained to the youngsters at refreshment after degrees the young guys
appreciate the ritual much more when some of the meanings are explained
to them.

When I'm on a roll quoting ritual at least some of the times it means
I'm reciting California lines not Illinois ones. Given this policy my
motivation to learn better ritual is low. To me meaning is more
important than exact quotes or foot placement.

Fraternal regards,
Doug Freyburger
PM 2007-8 Arlington Heights 1162 Illinois AF&AM
PM 1999 Pasadena 272 California F&AM

[KIV11]

On Apr 8, 7:42ï¿œpm, Doug Freyburger <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

ï¿œTo me meaning is more

Post by Doug Freyburger
important than exact quotes or foot placement.

Foot placement? Don't tell me that part of an AGL's (Assistant Grand
Lecurer) work is to teach how to stand and where to walk! Sheesh.

George K.

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by KIV11

To me meaning is more important than exact quotes or foot placement.

Foot placement? Don't tell me that part of an AGL's (Assistant Grand
Lecurer) work is to teach how to stand and where to walk! Sheesh.

Chuckle. Okay, I won't tell you that's part of the ritual instruction
in Illinois. Instead I'll mention that the way the rod is carried,
held, and transferred is different from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
I've taken chairs in the line in a California and an Illinois lodge and
I find it bewildering when to transfer my rod from one hand to the
other in the Illinois work.

Done well the result is as good as any military marching drill team or
any Shrine Patrol marching unit. But without discussing the meaning of
it those details are nothing but details. Stuff to memorize for the
purpose of exercising the memorization facilities of the mind but not
the meaning and reason facilities of the mind.

[Torence]

  To me meaning is more

Post by Doug Freyburger
important than exact quotes or foot placement.

Foot placement? Don't tell me that part of an AGL's (Assistant Grand
Lecurer) work is to teach how to stand and where to walk! Sheesh.
George K.

In Ilinois, every step is correographed not only as to where to
place each step; but the exact positioning of the feet even when in
motion. As the candidate and the various props are handled, there
are"ties" to ques and certain words in the ritual. To miss them, or be
a little late or a little slow is considered an error.
We do not have Assitant Grand Lecturers. We have a Board of Grand
Examiners who instruct the elected and appointed Grand Lodge Officers
and the Grand Lecturers. Each lodge for the last twenty years or so is
supposed to have a "Certified" Lodge Instructor and Past Masters, like
myself, are not supposed to be teaching unless certified, though we
do. Part of the certiification process involves signing something like
a loyalty oath before serious class work begins. Class will go one for
about 6 months to a year before examination. A Grand Lecturer, not
necessarily your instructor, must recommend you to your lodge for
certification, then the Lodge votes on sending you to be certified. I
have had two Grand Lecturers recommend me in the past; but I have
never taken the petition to the lodge for a vote.
The examination goes from about 8AM to 7PM. Applicants draw numbers
and as the work is done your number is randomly called to do this or
that part, sometimes in order, sometimes out of order. At any time
during the exam you can be sent home without certification. An
explanation, if there is any, will have to wait until some other day.
Should you receive and accept your certification, however, any notes
that the instructors took during the examination are destroyed in
front of the certified officers. That way there is never some future
question about whether or not the certification was properly given.
Candidates for CLI or GL have been denied in the past for reasons
other than the ability to perform the work such as "making mischief."

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Secretary - Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 - Crete, Illinois
PM - Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 - Lansing, Illinois

[Torence]

Post by Doug Freyburger
Learning ritual does not take a certified instructor. Given this policy
I would rather not have one when a question about meaning comes up.

I was just at CLI school last night doing the Master’s part. At the
point where the Master presents his right hand to the candidate I
mistakingly began, “My Brother…” Of course, I was corrected. My GL
Instructor said, that “it would be nice if the ritual began that way
but it doesn’t,” and I jokingly replied that when I was Grand Master
the ritual will start with the address.
A sort of argument between us began with half the room insisting if
the ritual were to change in that minor way, Illinois would no longer
be “Ancient Free and Accepted.” We got back to work but later on,
sharing a cup of coffee, I brought the topic up again, related the
Levi Lusk-Harmon Reynolds Conservator’s Association vs. Overseers of
the Work story and how the designation “Ancient” title referred to how
Illinois shortly after its inception adopted the spirit, styles and
business practices of the Athol Lodges rather than the Moderns and
that the designation is not any contract to conform to a book written
by dead men. Freemasonry is Rightful when we make it a living thing
and that is why Lodges have never, do not now, nor should they ever,
IMHO, conform to a written set of Constitutions and By-Laws.
So the opportunity to share stories exists at these gatherings with
the right students and instructor. I have an instructor who has been
doing the work for 46 years, 25+ as a GL, and though he has some
determined convictions of his own that differ from mine he has the
capacity to respect a student’s varying opinion.

Post by Doug Freyburger
When I'm on a roll quoting ritual at least some of the times it means
I'm reciting California lines not Illinois ones. Given this policy my
motivation to learn better ritual is low. To me meaning is more
important than exact quotes or foot placement.

Secretly, I must confess that I do like the discipline. Learning to
take what we call, the “Master’s Step” with precision, for example,
does look sharp and there is something of a secret language that gets
communicated to Grand Line Officers when they witness an Officer doing
the work in the informed way. We go through our degree process as
rites of passage and learning the nuances, if done correctly, is an
extension of the process. These comments of mine, however, are coming
dangerously close to an endorsement of the process; and I do not
subscribe to our one size fits all application. The Brother from Elgin
complained, half jokingly I am sure, about our obsession with how the
JD goes to and from the door in Illinois. Strict, obsessive conformity
is usually a symptom of ignorance rather than helpful instruction and
only drives men away. They have duties and responsibilities outside
the lodge. Why would an American, family man consent to give up his
free time for a boot camp abuse?
For us American Masons “The Work” is “The Thing,” not the
certification.
Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Secretary – Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois

[David Simpson]

[Default] On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 07:45:33 CST, Torence

Post by Torence

Post by bobthecow
There certainly does seem to be a lot of emphasis placed on exactly
how the Junior Deacon opens the door!

Good news. We have more for you in Freemasonry to feed your mind,
your body and your soul than endlessly dissecting the choreography.
Unfortunately, our current generation of instructors have been
restricted from teaching anything but the raw word and these minutias
of movement. I have been through the CLI School several times now and
am attending a class now. We are not allowed to provide color or
answer that vexatious question, “Why” if we are to keep our
certifications. Grand Lecturers and Grand Examiners also are
restricted from providing further light in or out of their capacity
without risking their commissions. IMHO, that condition leaves the
Local Lodges wanting.
Each time I have gone through these schools, however, I have refused
to take the examination. You may know our JGW. I took classes taught
by him with one other man who I still call Brother back in 2003.
Unfortunately, though he is more expert in the raw word and minute
movement of the work than I, our Grand Lodge successfully expelled him
five years ago for no tangible offense. He was inconvenient for that
Grand Master who only got a single year in office, and that Grand
Master thought it expedient to do so. (By the way, I am getting along
just fine with our JGW these days though we share this very serious
thing between us. Dynamically, we are a remarkable Brotherhood.)
When I started out there was no such creature in Illinois as a
Certified Lodge Instructor. Every lodge had a Past Master who was
their individual version of the Mason’s Mason. He usually posted each
candidate. He installed every Master. He was for all practical
purposes, the Lodge. He was the resource not only for instruction but
for the lodge history, and even the lore and fables of our club.
When the CLI position was introduced, along with it was legislation
that a Mason could not teach unless he was certified. This condition
has been sought by successive generations of Grand Line Officers to
wrestle control of the character of the individual lodge and make
lodges more uniform in nature. The legislation has been consistently
defeated, though it crops up again from time to time. A one size fits
all condition is a wrong condition for our club.
The best source for an explanation to what an Officer is doing
during the show, aside from reading the proceedings and thousands of
other volumes of material available in your local Masonic Library, is
either a place like this one here or at the dinner table before the
meeting. Of course, you are invited to my lodge anytime though it is a
bit of a drive for you. Feel free to invite Bill and Manish and even
your DDGM Tom if you like. We meet on the third Tuesdays for stated
and the first Tuesday either for school (Yeah, I am the Instructor) or
degree work. Crete meets on the 1st & 3rd Mondays opposite of your
nights. They are a particularly fine group of Masons whose Secretary
is also the Assistant Area Deputy Grand Master. If I know that you are
attending their lodge I and a few of my cohorts will join you. Crete
is neutral territory.
As for the JD work, it replaced the old emphasis on the Tyler’s
responsibilities. You will find that most Tyler positions in Illinois
receive a stipend in the lodge By-Laws because that Officer's role was
much larger in the workings of the lodge a few years back. Now, it has
been reduced to where many Brothers who are unfortunately, due to the
effects of age just a shadow of themselves, put there as an
honorarium. For a hint of the old workings let me tell you that any
knock used to be answered from within..but, by the Wardens... before
admittance. The old protocol assured for us better Lodge security.

My jurisdiction has the Tyler guarding the outer door and the Inner
Guard guarding the inner door. He answers any knocks and reports
directly to the (I think) Senior Warden. In the event of an alarm he
is instructed by the Senior Warden to report the nature of the alarm
directly to the Master.

[Stuart H.]

Post by Torence

Post by bobthecow
There certainly does seem to be a lot of emphasis placed on exactly
how the Junior Deacon opens the door!

Good news. We have more for you in Freemasonry to feed your mind,
your body and your soul than endlessly dissecting the choreography.
Unfortunately, our current generation of instructors have been
restricted from teaching anything but the raw word and these minutias
of movement. I have been through the CLI School several times now and
am attending a class now. We are not allowed to provide color or
answer that vexatious question, “Why” if we are to keep our
certifications. Grand Lecturers and Grand Examiners also are
restricted from providing further light in or out of their capacity
without risking their commissions. IMHO, that condition leaves the
Local Lodges wanting.
Each time I have gone through these schools, however, I have refused
to take the examination. You may know our JGW. I took classes taught
by him with one other man who I still call Brother back in 2003.
Unfortunately, though he is more expert in the raw word and minute
movement of the work than I, our Grand Lodge successfully expelled him
five years ago for no tangible offense. He was inconvenient for that
Grand Master who only got a single year in office, and that Grand
Master thought it expedient to do so. (By the way, I am getting along
just fine with our JGW these days though we share this very serious
thing between us. Dynamically, we are a remarkable Brotherhood.)
When I started out there was no such creature in Illinois as a
Certified Lodge Instructor. Every lodge had a Past Master who was
their individual version of the Mason’s Mason. He usually posted each
candidate. He installed every Master. He was for all practical
purposes, the Lodge. He was the resource not only for instruction but
for the lodge history, and even the lore and fables of our club.
When the CLI position was introduced, along with it was legislation
that a Mason could not teach unless he was certified. This condition
has been sought by successive generations of Grand Line Officers to
wrestle control of the character of the individual lodge and make
lodges more uniform in nature. The legislation has been consistently
defeated, though it crops up again from time to time. A one size fits
all condition is a wrong condition for our club.
The best source for an explanation to what an Officer is doing
during the show, aside from reading the proceedings and thousands of
other volumes of material available in your local Masonic Library, is
either a place like this one here or at the dinner table before the
meeting. Of course, you are invited to my lodge anytime though it is a
bit of a drive for you. Feel free to invite Bill and Manish and even
your DDGM Tom if you like. We meet on the third Tuesdays for stated
and the first Tuesday either for school (Yeah, I am the Instructor) or
degree work. Crete meets on the 1st& 3rd Mondays opposite of your
nights. They are a particularly fine group of Masons whose Secretary
is also the Assistant Area Deputy Grand Master. If I know that you are
attending their lodge I and a few of my cohorts will join you. Crete
is neutral territory.
As for the JD work, it replaced the old emphasis on the Tyler’s
responsibilities. You will find that most Tyler positions in Illinois
receive a stipend in the lodge By-Laws because that Officer's role was
much larger in the workings of the lodge a few years back. Now, it has
been reduced to where many Brothers who are unfortunately, due to the
effects of age just a shadow of themselves, put there as an
honorarium. For a hint of the old workings let me tell you that any
knock used to be answered from within..but, by the Wardens... before
admittance. The old protocol assured for us better Lodge security.
Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Secretary-Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois

As the French say, "Vivre la différence".

In our jurisdiction we have no Grand Lecturers and Grand Examiners, not
even Grand Inquisitors. Nor do we have Certified Lodge Instructors.
The three Great Lights are illuminated during Opening by the IPM, and
extinguished at closing by the same, or a visiting dignitary or PM.
There is provision for the JW to do so in the absence of the
aforementioned officers.

The Tyler is augmented, in our Canadian Rite, by an Inner Guard whose
post at all times is within the entrance of the Lodge, which provides
the security you mention in your "old workings", and in the other rite
authorized here, it is the JD who is reponsible.

One of the specific duties of the WM is to "employ and *instruct* the
brethren in Freemasonry", and that is emphasized at the opening of every
Lodge. Instruction can be part of the Education session during Lodge,
or at separate practice sessions, usually to prepare for degree work.
We do not seem to employ the concept of Lodge of Instruction, per se.

S & F,

Stuart H.
Treasurer & PM - Baseline Lodge #198 Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada
www.baselinelodge.ca

[Torence]

Post by Stuart H.
One of the specific duties of the WM is to "employ and *instruct* the
brethren in Freemasonry", and that is emphasized at the opening of every
Lodge. Instruction can be part of the Education session during Lodge,
or at separate practice sessions, usually to prepare for degree work.
We do not seem to employ the concept of Lodge of Instruction, per se.

I believe that you enjoy the superior set-up compared to our
jurisdiction. With it, the Local Lodge is the significant entity
particularly when it comes to deciding matters pertaining to the
welfare of the members, such as education, and the Grand Lodge serves
the fraternity in a more ceremonial capacity. Your form of
organization is more true to the Original Plan for FreeMasonry which
history proves to make as the best arrangement for an honorable
society.
Structure has much to do with the how successful an association will
prove to be. A similar set of distinctions can be made when observing
the historical development of law. In various societies, such as the
Romans, the original deciding bodies in matter of law were the
tribunals. Societies crumble when habeas corpus is discarded in favor
of deciding cases based on the Sovereign Will of a singular ruler,
like a Caesar. Just as Israel was ruled first by Judges, then grew
more troublesome when too much trust was placed in David, and abuse
was abundant in England until King John gave his people the promise of
judicial review in the Magna Charta, the welfare of our Craft is best
kept when the Principle Officers see to it that their Lodge is well
respected and kept significant.
In the Illinois of the last century and a half, I regret, our Fore
Brothers gave up to much of the ghost; and in this century I will be
pleased to see the old relationship between the Local Lodges and the
Grand Lodge restored.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Secretary - Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 - Crete, Illinois
PM - Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 - Lansing, Illinois

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Torence
So, to my Illinois Brothers I ask, are you satisfied with the state
of your lodges and the quality of the Masonic education that you are
allowed to give?

It seems that I don't quite think this means what you seem to think it
means. On the standardized agenda for a Stated meeting ever since I
joined an Illinois lodge has been an entry for "Masonic Education" near
the end of the meeting. While going through the line the first time I
was more focused on the business of the lodge, building the degree team,
trying to figure out what activities would improve attendence and such.
But I did write a series of articles in the Temple Topics newspaper that
were educational. I tried to discuss what meaning is to be found in the
ritual, what our values are, what we're supposed to be learning.

In the time since I've been out of the East I've started doing a regular
series of Masonic Education speeches. I have on at least one occasion
pointed out that the Board of Grand Examiners ignore the meaning of the
ritual and have therefore introduced substantive errors in what they
teach as technically correct. I've published such articles in the
Temple Topics newspaper. I have not been censured for doing so.
Because I like giving these presentations I now do them at more than one
Illinois lodge.

The "Masonic Education" line item on the monthly agenda is not ritual
and is therefore neither determined nor limited by the instructors of
ritual.

Post by Torence
Are you interested in attending schools where we
quibble over whether or not a SD can pull the VSL toward him before
illuminating it?

Interested? No, I attend district schools for the team building
aspects. I do it that the younger guys in lodge will see me doing it
and emulate me by attending the schools as they progress through the
line.

At least once per year I need to remind the DDGM that his job title is
not "District Deputy Grand Lecturer" and that it is appropriate that at
least one district meeting per year not be a school. It is appropriate
that at least one per year be a ritual school, but not all of them. He
reports to the Grand Master who runs the GL not to the Board of Grand
Examiners who teach the standard ritual.

Post by Torence
Or would you rather see some of this old work made
new again?

Chuckle. By that I mean Table Lodge. By that you mean varied Ritual.
Vive la difference!

Post by Torence
And by the way, just as an FYI Brother Rich, the penalties
have to do with the covenants that we make with T.G.A.O.T.U. and can
be found in the VSL. They are the directions for preparing an animal
for kosher or halal cooking and those that allegorically suffered them
were no more than brute animals themselves.

Interesting. Yet the due guards of the degrees have to do with, uhmm,
mumble mumble mumble gotta talk about that bit face to face, but the
source is on a subcontinent well to the east.

[Dave Vick, PM]

Post by J. Bennie

Post by Dave Vick, PM
With all due respect, you still have not answered Bro. Jim's
question...

Funny, isn't it?

Funny-ha-ha or funny-hmmm?