rose symbolism

[David Dalton]

I'm not yet a freemason but am interested in rose symbolism
in freemasonry, amorc and rosicrucianism so follow up if
you know something about it or have some relevant links.

Some may also be interested in my blue rose vision
of Sept. 6, 1991 which is described on
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/sunstare.html
which is a subsubpage of my Salmon on the Thorns
web page http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html .

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by David Dalton
I'm not yet a freemason

There's a sanity requirement to join. You're harmless but you
hallucinate regularly and that's not sane. I recommend that you do not
attempt to become a Mason.

Post by David Dalton
but am interested in rose symbolism
in freemasonry, amorc and rosicrucianism so follow up if
you know something about it or have some relevant links.

Note that Freemasonry as such is the first three degrees. No roses
appear in any version I'ver heard of in the first three degrees.

The Scotish Rite is an optional additional branch of Freemasonry called
a concordant body. You need to be a Master Mason to join but there's no
expectation that any one MM will join the Scotish Rite. Several of the
Scotish Rite degrees form a Rosicrucian grouping and they do feature a
rose. In them the rose symbol is used much the same way as it is in the
AMORC or other Rosicrucian societies.

[David Dalton]

Post by Doug Freyburger
Note that Freemasonry as such is the first three degrees. No roses
appear in any version I'ver heard of in the first three degrees.
The Scotish Rite is an optional additional branch of Freemasonry called
a concordant body. You need to be a Master Mason to join but there's no
expectation that any one MM will join the Scotish Rite. Several of the
Scotish Rite degrees form a Rosicrucian grouping and they do feature a
rose. In them the rose symbol is used much the same way as it is in the
AMORC or other Rosicrucian societies.

Thanks, Doug.

[David Dalton]

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by David Dalton
I'm not yet a freemason

There's a sanity requirement to join. You're harmless but you
hallucinate regularly and that's not sane. I recommend that you do not
attempt to become a Mason.

I don't hallucinate regularly. If I did I would be diagnosed
as schizoaffective and not bipolar. The only vision I have
had was the blue rose vision and that is not proved to be a
vision (i.e. nobody else was there to say he or she could
not see it), plus occurred when I was highly manic, not during
normal mood.

Also on my meds (900 mg lithium carbonate/day and 10 mg
olanzapine/day) I am mostly sane and my relations with
other people offline are good and I think I am capable
of working. My Salmon on the Thorns web page does
document past periods when I was not sane, however,
and I am claiming to be similar to Jesus based on my
biographical experiences, and some Christians might
consider that not to be sane.

But are people with a mental illness, even if it is well
managed, actually excluded from becoming a Mason?

[Mudge]

Post by David Dalton

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by David Dalton
I'm not yet a freemason

There's a sanity requirement to join. You're harmless but you
hallucinate regularly and that's not sane. I recommend that you do not
attempt to become a Mason.

I don't hallucinate regularly. If I did I would be diagnosed
as schizoaffective and not bipolar. The only vision I have
had was the blue rose vision and that is not proved to be a
vision (i.e. nobody else was there to say he or she could
not see it), plus occurred when I was highly manic, not during
normal mood.
Also on my meds (900 mg lithium carbonate/day and 10 mg
olanzapine/day) I am mostly sane and my relations with
other people offline are good and I think I am capable
of working. My Salmon on the Thorns web page does
document past periods when I was not sane, however,
and I am claiming to be similar to Jesus based on my
biographical experiences, and some Christians might
consider that not to be sane.
But are people with a mental illness, even if it is well
managed, actually excluded from becoming a Mason?

Probably not - but they ususally post on the internet at
"alt.freemasonry" - not here !

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by David Dalton

Post by Doug Freyburger
There's a sanity requirement to join. You're harmless but you
hallucinate regularly and that's not sane. I recommend that you do not
attempt to become a Mason.

But are people with a mental illness, even if it is well
managed, actually excluded from becoming a Mason?

That's an interesting question.

When it's not well managed it's clear. In the oath of the third degree
in both of the jurisdictions I know there's a list of qualifications to
be willing to attend a degree or to agree to allow a person to become a
Mason. Because all applicatants must be elected by unanymous vote they
are important qualifications. No women, atheists, men under age
(specificially defined in the by laws), men over age (never defined
anywhere that I've read), mad men or fools. There's a similar caution
in the charges to the candidate after getting his degrees.

When it's well managed perhaps the example of physical defects applies.
When Masonry was a guild or labor union centuries ago apprentices
needed to have no physical flaws because the union took care of those
crippled on the job as well as widows and orphans of those killed on
the job. Since the switch to a fraternity we no longer have an
insurance aspect so the need for a ban of physical defects no longer
applies.

But are the reasons for excluding men with mental defects still valid?
I know of a brother who's so badly dyslexic he could not memorize the
proficiencies and he's as active contributing to events as any Mason
I've met. But where the line is I can't make any general judgment. The
prohibition against men not of right mind includes not being able to
understand what should be kept private and what should be made public.
Masons tend to be a private bunch who share personal details and we need
to be able to trust each others' judgment.

Fraternal regards,
Doug Freyburger
PM 2007-8 Arlington Heights 1162 Illinois AF&AM current SW
PM 1999 Pasadena 272 California F&AM

[Bellende Belhamel]

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by David Dalton
I'm not yet a freemason

There's a sanity requirement to join. You're harmless but you
hallucinate regularly and that's not sane. I recommend that you do not
attempt to become a Mason.

Hmm, I don`t want to meddle (so why do I, I know ;o) )
but sanity is an arbitrary thing. I think that there are many
who would deem what masons do insane. Especially the
symbolism and rituals etc. .
I know many homeless who seem to talk gibberish, but
if you understand their symbolism in which they sometimes speak
they make as much sense as many others, they only express it in
a way which is not familiar to us. many deem them crazy, while they
sometimes express more sane views then the viewers, when translated.

But I know, parrot what the others parrot, and you will be deemed sane.

)O+->

[Brian K.Lingard]

In the Province of Ontario, disability, presumably including mental illness wasonce a bar to lodge membership but is no longer so.Brian