Heroes

[Torence]

The story goes that Napoleon Bonaparte was made a Mason in Arme
Philadelphe Lodge while at Malta in 1798. When he completed his
conquest of Egypt, Bonaparte approached those marvelous structures of
architecture, the Great Pyramids of Giza, and pronounced to his
troops, “Soldiers, from the summits of yonder pyramids, forty ages
survey your conduct. Act like heroes!”
Fable aside, who in Freemasonry have you known to fit this
description? Who are your Masonic heroes?

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon – Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois

[Offramp]

  The story goes that Napoleon Bonaparte was made a Mason in Arme
Philadelphe Lodge while at Malta in 1798. When he completed his
conquest of Egypt, Bonaparte approached those marvelous structures of
architecture, the Great Pyramids of Giza, and pronounced to his
troops, “Soldiers, from the summits of yonder pyramids, forty ages
survey your conduct. Act like heroes!”
    Fable aside, who in Freemasonry have you known to fit this
description? Who are your Masonic heroes?
Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon – Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois

It is more often given as "Soldiers, think that, from the summit of
these pyramids, forty centuries look down upon you."
I would love to think that Napoleon was a freemason, and Beethoven,
but I am not sure there is proof about either.
My two masonic heroes are Alexander Pope and William Hogarth.

[jadam]

Post by Offramp

  The story goes that Napoleon Bonaparte was made a Mason in Arme
Philadelphe Lodge while at Malta in 1798. When he completed his
conquest of Egypt, Bonaparte approached those marvelous structures of
architecture, the Great Pyramids of Giza, and pronounced to his
troops, “Soldiers, from the summits of yonder pyramids, forty ages
survey your conduct. Act like heroes!”
    Fable aside, who in Freemasonry have you known to fit this
description? Who are your Masonic heroes?
Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon – Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois

It is more often given as "Soldiers, think that, from the summit of
these pyramids, forty centuries look down upon you."
I would love to think that Napoleon was a freemason, and Beethoven,
but I am not sure there is proof about either.
My two masonic heroes are Alexander Pope and William Hogarth.

My Masonic heros are Maurice Buck M.D. and Albert Pipe. They seem to
be strangers on Masonic websites.
Jadam

[Torence]

My father is right up there on the list of Masonic heros. He was
Past Grand Marshall for Maryland in 1973; but walked away from being
Grand Master. I saw him Sunday; and though he has the usual issues,
being in his eighties, he manages to get out once a month to pal
around with his Brothers.
Historic Illinois figures include Grand Masters Levi Lusk, D. C.
Cregar, John Corson Smith and Henry Burnap. Grand Master Joseph
Robbins has my supreme respect, having recovered from being nearly
expelled in the Conservators Association-Overseers of the Work dispute
in the 19th century and becoming our principle correspondant for
foreign jurisdictions over the course of many years. The living Grand
Master that I most admire is M. W. Bro. Bob Ford.
Notable Famous Masons of course include famous entertainers such as
Red Skelton, Ernest Borgnine and John Wayne. Political figures include
Illinois Governors Shadrach Bond, and Edward Coles. (Though one recent
notable Governor & I were candidates together in the York Rite. He is
no longer a member). Edward Coles was principally responsible for
keeping Illinois free. He sold his Virginia plantation and munumitted
his slaves just south of Pittsburgh on the Ohio River while traveling
to Illinois and before becoming Governor. (His successor was Ninnian
Edwards. The most corrupt Illinois Governor...and that is really an
acheivement. Aside from succeeding Coles, Edwards was Territorial
Governor from 1809-1818 before Illinois was a State.)
I could go on but these are jsut a few of the men who are Brothers
that I consider heroic.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon - Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 - Crete, Illinois
PM- Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 - Lansing, Illinois

[s***@gmail.com]

A Masonic Hero of mine, which may raise some eye-brows and some
controversy, is Joseph Smith, Jr.

He showed uncharacteristic humility in his love of Freemasonry, after
an early life as an outspoken Anti-Mason. His writings (particularly
the Book of Mormon) are filled with Anti-Masonic statements about the
evils of "secret combinations." He was born and raised in Palmira NY,
the heart of the Morgan Affair area. When he actually was exposed to
Freemasons and Freemasonry, he embraced it. He was the boss in all
areas of his life: secular and religous. In the lodge, he was
Chaplain. He was able to be on the level with his brothers.

Another hero for me is Theodore Roosevelt, for all of the obvious
reasons, and Harry Truman, because, as an infant, we met him in a park
near the White House, and he carried me around, and put me up in a
tree. I have a picture somewhere. He was a nice man.

Steve Brettell,
Birmingham #188
Maryland

[Larry The Mason from Holbrook]

    Fable aside, who in Freemasonry have you known to fit this
description? Who are your Masonic heroes?

RWB Ronald Williams (PM, Past DDGM in California) for showing me from
the moment we first met how a Mason should live, walk and act, and for
inspiring me to become a Mason.

Frank Land for helping to create the Order of DeMolay, without which I
would not have had a reason to visit a Job's Daughters event and meet
my wife.

William Mark Sexton for helping to create the International Order of
the Rainbow for Girls, without which my daughter would have not met so
many friends around the world and would not have learned to be a
leader.

Every Mason I've met beyond the length of my cable tow for showing me
again and again that Brotherly Love prevails.

Brother (Worshipful?) Ed King for making me think twice about the
decision I was making to become a Mason, which caused me to confirm
that I was indeed doing the right thing.

And a bunch of others, including the members of my Lodge.

Fraternally.
Larry W
Holbrook #30 AF&AM
Forest Grove, Oregon

[unknown]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry The Mason from Holbrook"
<***@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.org.freemasonry
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 3:31 AM
Subject: Re: Heroes

Post by Larry The Mason from Holbrook

Post by Torence
Fable aside, who in Freemasonry have you known to fit this
description? Who are your Masonic heroes?

RWB Ronald Williams (PM, Past DDGM in California) for showing me from
the moment we first met how a Mason should live, walk and act, and for
inspiring me to become a Mason.
Frank Land for helping to create the Order of DeMolay, without which I
would not have had a reason to visit a Job's Daughters event and meet
my wife.

Oh - so that's what DeMolay and Job's Daughters were created for! :-)

I always wondered why US Freemasonry had these two 'junior' appendent bodies

<snipped>

However, to stay on thread I suppose I'd better come up with some heroes.

How about William Schaw, for his widsom in devising the Schaw Statutes which
governed Scottish Freemasonry?

Or His Majesty, Habibullah Khan, Amir of Afghanistan?

[Jim Bennie]

Post by unknown
I always wondered why US Freemasonry had these two 'junior' appendent
bodies.

Candidates, at one time anyway, were asked before entering the Chapter room
whether they understood that DeMolay was "not a junior Masonic order."

Jim, PMC Chev RD and so on
Abbottsford Chapter, Abbotsford, B.C.

[Richard Watson]

As an aside, I have been thinking a lot on why prominent people no longer knock on the door of Freemasonry as they have in our history. Freemasonry once was viewed as a progressive movement toward "liberty, equality, and fraternity". Men of prominence not only joined us, but actively and publicly made their Masonic association known. We no longer draw such men in the numbers we once did. Any thoughts why?

Richard Watson


-----Original Message-----
From: sof-mail-***@mail.cybermango.org [mailto:sof-mail-***@mail.cybermango.org] On Behalf Of Larry The Mason from Holbrook
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 7:32 PM
To: sof-***@mail.cybermango.org
Subject: Re: [sof] Heroes

Post by Torence
Fable aside, who in Freemasonry have you known to fit this
description? Who are your Masonic heroes?

RWB Ronald Williams (PM, Past DDGM in California) for showing me from the moment we first met how a Mason should live, walk and act, and for inspiring me to become a Mason.

Frank Land for helping to create the Order of DeMolay, without which I would not have had a reason to visit a Job's Daughters event and meet my wife.

William Mark Sexton for helping to create the International Order of the Rainbow for Girls, without which my daughter would have not met so many friends around the world and would not have learned to be a leader.

Every Mason I've met beyond the length of my cable tow for showing me again and again that Brotherly Love prevails.

Brother (Worshipful?) Ed King for making me think twice about the decision I was making to become a Mason, which caused me to confirm that I was indeed doing the right thing.

And a bunch of others, including the members of my Lodge.

Fraternally.
Larry W
Holbrook #30 AF&AM
Forest Grove, Oregon

[Torence]

Post by Richard Watson
As an aside, I have been thinking a lot on why prominent people no longer knock on the door of Freemasonry as they have in our history. Freemasonry once was viewed as a progressive movement toward "liberty, equality, and fraternity". Men of prominence not only joined us, but actively and publicly made their Masonic association known. We no longer draw such men in the numbers we once did. Any thoughts why?
Richard Watson

Well, to paraphrase Groucho Marx, the old saying that, “I would
never be a member of any organization that would have a guy like me as
a member” would probably apply. Whenever I come across those within us
who seek to bring petitions for Captains of Industry, or the notable
Politician, or Peace Officers, or Servicemen, or Clergy, etc. into our
organization, I do not see it that FreeMasonry needs that particular
type of man. IMHO Each of them have, instead, a much more urgent need
to find Freemasonry for their daily occupations, than our club has any
particular use for them.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon – Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Richard Watson
As an aside, I have been thinking a lot on why prominent
people no longer knock on the door of Freemasonry as they
have in our history.

I wonder if there's a way to tell whether this impression is true.

Consider that Masonry undergoes swings in popularity that
last 80-100 years and we are now about 10 years past a low
web in that cycle* It becomes easy to see our current low
population and make pessimistic conclusions. It's also easy
to see the historical judgement of men who are now history
and not get that living men need to become history before they
get judged as historical.

* This trend is clear in the history of US jurisdictions. I've seen
the data for New Hampshire, am currently digging out the data
for Illinois, have read articles from several US GLs that show
it's true there as well. I have no idea if this is a national or
worldwide trend.

To me this is a serious puzzle - Are prominent men still
joining our fraternity so as to have membership be viewed as
an elite? When it comes down to it that's why I think there
are so many prominent Masons in historical lists - Elite
reputation draws elite men. If it really is as simple as that,
I'm dubious it is, then my own lodges have doctors, corporate
executives, business owners and so on. My Scottish Rite
valley has politicians in the US House of Rep. My Shrine
Temple is packed with men successful in many walks of life.

Post by Richard Watson
Freemasonry once was viewed as a progressive movement
toward "liberty, equality, and fraternity".

In much of the civilized world that's now a done deal. Kings
are tabloid fodder. The number of nations under tyrants does
gradually decline. Consider that in the time GLs have been in
existence India has gone from a UK Imperial conquest under
occupation to one of the great democracies of the world and
most of Europe has gone the path of Parliment and tabloid
royalty of no royalty. Decade to decade more and more of
the planet is under democracy. Consider that tyrants are
gradually coming to loosen their grips in order to have
prosperity so China and Singapore become milder as the
decades progress. The progress is slow on a human scale
and there are still nations under tyrants or worse but the
amount it has been siginificant in the lifetime of GL Masonry.

An interesting conundrum - Should modern Masonry push for
the advancement of democratic instituations in the industrializing
nations and in the advancing nations, however you wish to call
the "second and third worlds"? And how to do so without entering
into politics. I wonder if modern GLs might give more than
recognition and verbal encouragement to GLs in emerging nations.
Is there a way to foster the growth of democracy and religious
freedom and tolerance in the developing world without making it
political? If so it would be a charitable activity I think many
brothers would be happy to support, but how to make such a
quest non-political?

Post by Richard Watson
Men of prominence not only joined us, but actively and publicly
made their Masonic association known. We no longer draw
such men in the numbers we once did. Any thoughts why?

For the reaosns I discussed above I think you're conflating at
least two separate issues - Trends in popularity with the viewpoint
bias that brings, and been-there-done-that of thinking democracy
is the main social innovation Masonry is/was/will-be about.

1) I think "liberty, equality, and fraternity" is a noble goal that
could be made to reach the rest of the world in the next century.
Is there a way Masonry could encourage that without it becoming
political?

2) I think social innovation can be done in our own current context
even though "liberty, equality, and fraternity" is a done deal in most
nations of western civilization and in other cultures witherso
dispersed across the world. Masonic orders sponsor charities
that do medical research. In the US a century ago Masonry saw
the need for public schools paid for by taxes and pursued that as a
goal.

My brethren, what other types of social advancement might we
want to sponsor and encourage? We live in a world where we
meet on the level across the Internet yet there are genocides in
progress in Darfur and other lands, suicide bombers blowing up
in crowds and on and on. Masonry is a progressive moral science,
taught by degrees. The world needs the progress of "liberty,
equality, and fraternity" in some of its parts. The world needs
other forms of progress in our own parts.

What's the next philosophical advancement in civilization? How
to bring the benefits of previous advancements to the rest of the
world? These are the external and internal questions for our own
culture to ponder and to figure out how to act upon.

[Torence]

It's also easy to see the historical judgement of men who are now history and not get
that living men need to become history before they get judged as historical.

Paraphrasing Ecclesiastes, however, the Chapters before the Sublime
Degree reading, the Preacher says “Vanity of Vanities, All is Vanity.”
Ancient Craft FreeMasonry provides us with the universal language of
emblems, and the broken pillar is a reminder that whatever a man may
construct on Earth vanishes. Nearest to forever is only that which
TSAOTU creates.
Unless an Officer or Rank and File Member’s efforts register for
the greater good today, what a future historian will make of the work
is of little consequence.

Consider that Masonry undergoes swings in popularity that last 80-100 years and we
are now about 10 years past a low web in that cycle*
* This trend is clear in the history of US jurisdictions. I've seen the data for New
Hampshire, am currently digging out the data for Illinois, have read articles from
several US GLs that show it's true there as well.

IMHO, making the effort to calculate global and jurisdictional
statistics regarding applicant and degree graduates, produces numbers
useful only to the Grand Lines that need to collect per capita. As
long as Ancient Craft FreeMasonry lives in the hearts of as few as two
men, the fraternity is as equally viable and can contribute to the
greater good as when millions populate the roles.
The Grand Lodge authored membership efforts that I have examined,
if they were to bring Local Lodges any candidates at all, introduces
men into the fraternity who seem interested in taking more out, than
putting in. The Local Lodges have a proven method of interesting
suitable material into lodges that come into the experience prepared
to become full and lawful candidates for whatever degree they aspire.
I suggest polling the lodges represented here as to how, honestly,
new men are welcomed into their individual lodges and listing the
source. For my Lodge, candidates are usually brought in by Family
Members, (Curiously mostly Uncles and Nephews rather than
Grandfathers, Fathers and Sons) and Co-Workers who earn a living as
Operating Engineers and Light Construction Contractors.

Decade to decade more and more of the planet is under democracy.

Not true, my learned Worshipful Brother Freyburger, decade to
decade, more men in this world have grown up Communist; and Masonry is
unlikely to alter that trend any time soon. Tomorrow morning there
will be more Socialist babies brought into the world than any who are
destined to live in any sort of democracy. The situation is just as
well for us, IMHO, as FreeMasonry would not flourish in a democracy.
Our club can be seen to be strongest in Free Republics, like our own.

Is there a way to foster the growth of democracy and religious freedom and tolerance in
the developing world without making it political?

Can Masonry do the beauty pageant thing and be a beacon for “world
peace?” The notion is not so far fetched and several times in our
history here in Illinois Grand Orators have called for just that
purpose for FreeMasonry. Personally, I do not see the concept as
political; but rather a good influence particularly on our Grand Line
Officers to keep any political perspectives that they may possess,
their own.

1) I think "liberty, equality, and fraternity" is a noble goal that could be made to reach
the rest of the world in the next century. Is there a way Masonry

could encourage that

without it becoming political?

Yes, by affirming Freedom as a fundamental Masonic Principle.
Particularly important is to define what aspects of life our club
should support other kinds of men to maintain in a free state. We have
inherited four essential freedoms that Masonry has been particularly
good about fostering, at least in the literature. They are neatly
defined as Freedom for Religion, Freedom for Speech, Freedom from Want
and Freedom from Fear. But, we must be ever vigilant and never lapse
into allowing ourselves to be defined by men who do not share the same
passionate love of these four essential facets for living to be kept
free. Are there other components for twenty-first century living that
we should include on this Freedom list? Is Freedom to choose your
occupation such any area to discuss. We are, after all, Masters and
not Slaves.

In the US a century ago Masonry saw the need for public schools paid for by taxes and
pursued that as a goal.

Masonry, in many states, has been replaced by the State run Lottery
for that support. What a disturbing result. Masonry teaches that true
wealth can only come from work.
As the trend now is to “Go Green,” perhaps FreeMasonry should
promote Freedom to Travel as a unique Twenty-first Century take on the
theme. Society at Large would benefit from a cleaner, more timely and
Free Transit System. Staring small, Local Lodges could Adopt Bus
Shelters, clean and/or buy new buses, recognize non-Mason bus and
train operators etc. Masonry, therefore, should also stand for Open
Borders. Justice demands that the Freedom to Travel should be
available to all who can afford to do so, and not the priviledge of
any particular kind of man.

What's the next philosophical advancement in civilization? How to bring the benefits
of previous advancements to the rest of the world? These are the external and internal
questions for our own culture to ponder and to figure out how to act upon.

Twenty-first Century Masons, act like heroes.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon – Auburn park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois

[Chris H]

In message

Post by Torence

Decade to decade more and more of the planet is under democracy.

Not true, my learned Worshipful Brother Freyburger, decade to
decade, more men in this world have grown up Communist; and Masonry is
unlikely to alter that trend any time soon. Tomorrow morning there
will be more Socialist babies brought into the world than any who are
destined to live in any sort of democracy.

What are you babbling about? Many (most?) democracies have Socialist
parties in them. Socialist does not == communist.

Many democracies also have communist parties too.

Many of the more proscriptive regimes are far more right of centre than
socialist.

Post by Torence
The situation is just as
well for us, IMHO, as FreeMasonry would not flourish in a democracy.

It does flourish in democracies.

Post by Torence
Yes, by affirming Freedom as a fundamental Masonic Principle.

Define Freedom first.
Then define Democracy.

Post by Torence
Particularly important is to define what aspects of life our club
should support other kinds of men to maintain in a free state. We have
inherited four essential freedoms that Masonry has been particularly
good about fostering, at least in the literature. They are neatly
defined as Freedom for Religion, Freedom for Speech, Freedom from Want
and Freedom from Fear.

In theory only a socialist state can give that. Communist states don't
believe in God (and or don't permit God) and Capitalist states don't
provide for the less fortunate.

Neither far right nor far left* permit freedom of speech

(*Socialists are not far left)

Post by Torence
we should include on this Freedom list? Is Freedom to choose your
occupation such any area to discuss. We are, after all, Masters and
not Slaves.

Who are the Slaves?

Post by Torence
As the trend now is to “Go Green,” perhaps FreeMasonry should
promote Freedom to Travel as a unique Twenty-first Century take on the
theme.

What has "go green" got to do with Freedom to Travel?

Post by Torence
Society at Large would benefit from a cleaner, more timely and
Free Transit System.

That's socialist talk :-)

Post by Torence
Justice demands that the Freedom to Travel should be
available to all who can afford to do so, and not the priviledge of
any particular kind of man.

Just the rich? ie those who can afford it......

[Torence]

Post by Chris H
What are you babbling about? Many (most?) democracies have Socialist
parties in them. Socialist does not == communist.

No but the majority of children born into this world do so in
communist countries. Or should we not consider the greater part of
Asia, etc. in our conversation.

Post by Chris H
Define Freedom first.
Then define Democracy.

Freedom: The absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice
or action, liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of
another. The quality or state of being, exempt or released usually
from something onerous.
Democracy: A government in which the supreme power is vested in the
people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system
of representation usually involving periodically held free elections.
Republic: A state or nation in which the supreme power rests in all
the citizens entitled to vote. This power is exercised by
representatives elected, directly or indirectly, by them and
ultimately responsible to them.

At least for US jurisdictions, FreeMasonry is governed in the
republican manner and would fundamentally change if reorganized to
comply with a democratic formula. The nations where we find our clubs
in the most robust condition, are also those that are modeled using
the republican system.

Post by Chris H

They are neatly defined as Freedom for Religion, Freedom for Speech, Freedom
from Want and Freedom from Fear.

In theory only a socialist state can give that.

Please explain. As for our Free American republic, we have always
held that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are obtainable
using our rather unique and curious blueprint of on going revolution.
Are we mistaken?

Post by Chris H
Communist states don't believe in God (and or don't permit God)
and Capitalist states don't provide for the less fortunate.

What? Did they close the work houses?!!! Or yeah, I guess that some
Socialists did. Oh well, better that we decrease the surface
population.

Post by Chris H
Neither far right nor far left* permit freedom of speech
(*Socialists are not far left)

Smile when ya say that, pardner.

Post by Chris H

We are, after all, Masters and not Slaves.

Who are the Slaves?

No man admitted to join a Masonic lodge. Among others, you will find
many.

Post by Chris H
What has "go green" got to do with Freedom to Travel?

I was just getting to that..

Post by Chris H

Society at Large would benefit from a cleaner, more timely and Free Transit System.

That's socialist talk :-)

Just as long as you know that I am more a radish than a tomato. I do
not mind appearing a little red as long as everyone knows that I am
white just below the surface.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon – Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois

[Chris H]

In message

Post by Torence

Post by Chris H
What are you babbling about? Many (most?) democracies have Socialist
parties in them. Socialist does not == communist.

No but the majority of children born into this world do so in
communist countries. Or should we not consider the greater part of
Asia, etc. in our conversation.

Which parts of Asia are communist AND not democratic? Also which
countries are not democratic or communist...

Post by Torence

Post by Chris H
Define Freedom first.
Then define Democracy.

Freedom: The absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice
or action, liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of
another. The quality or state of being, exempt or released usually
from something onerous.

SO when did the US become free? AFAIR the blacks only got the vote in
the last 50 years? When were the anti communist witch hunts? When did
the US last get the military on the streets and shoot civilian
protesters (when was Kent state?)

Post by Torence
Democracy: A government in which the supreme power is vested in the
people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system
of representation usually involving periodically held free elections.

SO we won't look into the travesty that was the 2004 US Presidential
election?

Post by Torence
Republic: A state or nation in which the supreme power rests in all
the citizens entitled to vote.

When did the blacks get the vote and look and the Zimbabwesque things
that happened to try and stop black and other voters this time around in
the US

Post by Torence
At least for US jurisdictions, FreeMasonry is governed in the
republican manner and would fundamentally change if reorganized to
comply with a democratic formula.

I don't see how

Post by Torence

Post by Chris H

They are neatly defined as Freedom for Religion, Freedom for Speech, Freedom
from Want and Freedom from Fear.

In theory only a socialist state can give that.

Please explain. As for our Free American republic, we have always
held that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are obtainable
using our rather unique and curious blueprint of on going revolution.
Are we mistaken?

Yes. There is no free medical or dental system for all... no money no
doctor.

No job no state help.

The poor and the disadvantaged are left to rot.

Post by Torence

Post by Chris H
Communist states don't believe in God (and or don't permit God)
and Capitalist states don't provide for the less fortunate.

What? Did they close the work houses?!!! Or yeah, I guess that some
Socialists did.

What do you have for free health for all?

Post by Torence
Oh well, better that we decrease the surface
population.

That is a good idea generally

Post by Torence

Post by Chris H
Neither far right nor far left* permit freedom of speech
(*Socialists are not far left)

Smile when ya say that, pardner.

NO it is a FACT we currently have a socialist government in the US

Post by Torence

Post by Chris H

We are, after all, Masters and not Slaves.

Who are the Slaves?

No man admitted to join a Masonic lodge. Among others, you will find
many.

Explain?

Post by Torence

Post by Chris H
What has "go green" got to do with Freedom to Travel?

I was just getting to that..

[Russ Kimball]

Post by Chris H
In message

Post by Torence

Post by Chris H
What are you babbling about? Many (most?) democracies have Socialist
parties in them. Socialist does not == communist.

No but the majority of children born into this world do so in
communist countries. Or should we not consider the greater part of
Asia, etc. in our conversation.

Which parts of Asia are communist AND not democratic?

China leaps to mind as does Russia. By no stretch of the most liberal mind
are these particular countries democratic.

Post by Chris H
Also which countries are not democratic or communist...

Myanmar, Thailand and North Korea come to mind.

Post by Chris H

Post by Torence

Post by Chris H
Define Freedom first.
Then define Democracy.

Freedom: The absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice
or action, liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of
another. The quality or state of being, exempt or released usually
from something onerous.

SO when did the US become free?

We won our release from tyranny, by treaty, in 1783. It's been a work in
progress and enlightenment ever since due to the work of some very prominent
brethren from that period. BTW: Have you ever listened to the Presidential
Oath of Office? It has a certain ring to it.

Post by Chris H
AFAIR the blacks only got the vote in the last 50 years?

Well, again, as I said, it has been in progress, but they do have it now.
Seems to me that there were some people in this area who were subjects of
the crown, but weren't allowed a say in their government and, not that it
matters to me one whit but FWIW, they were white for the most part.

Post by Chris H
When were the anti communist witch hunts?

When it was found that certain communists had Soviet handlers and that they
had infiltrated our government at the highest levels for the purpose
influencing outcomes that where more advantageous to foreign governments
than to ours.

Post by Chris H
When did the US last get the military on the streets and shoot civilian
protesters (when was Kent state?)

It was sometime shy of our 200th anniversary as a nation. There was a
nation with some 600+ years in existance shooting its unarmed citizens in
the street not 100 miles from where I am now sitting. The first guy to die
was a guy named Crispus Attucks. He was black FWIW.

Post by Chris H

Post by Torence
Democracy: A government in which the supreme power is vested in the
people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system
of representation usually involving periodically held free elections.

SO we won't look into the travesty that was the 2004 US Presidential
election?

No and I don't agree with your premise.

Post by Chris H

Post by Torence
Republic: A state or nation in which the supreme power rests in all
the citizens entitled to vote.

When did the blacks get the vote and look and the Zimbabwesque things that
happened to try and stop black and other voters this time around in the US

Like this?:

Post by Chris H

Post by Torence
At least for US jurisdictions, FreeMasonry is governed in the
republican manner and would fundamentally change if reorganized to
comply with a democratic formula.

I don't see how

Post by Torence

Post by Chris H

They are neatly defined as Freedom for Religion, Freedom for Speech, Freedom
from Want and Freedom from Fear.

In theory only a socialist state can give that.

Please explain. As for our Free American republic, we have always
held that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are obtainable
using our rather unique and curious blueprint of on going revolution.
Are we mistaken?

Yes. There is no free medical or dental system for all... no money no
doctor.

This is dishonest. People cannot be refused healthcare here (even illegal
aliens).

Post by Chris H
No job no state help.

You've never been to Massachusetts, obviously.

Post by Chris H
The poor and the disadvantaged are left to rot.

You've never been to Massachusetts, obviously.

Post by Chris H

Post by Torence

Post by Chris H
Communist states don't believe in God (and or don't permit God)
and Capitalist states don't provide for the less fortunate.

What? Did they close the work houses?!!! Or yeah, I guess that some
Socialists did.

What do you have for free health for all?

No, for the most part, we have private insurance (just like is available in
the UK - why is that, if socialized medicine is so good?). Why do Canadians
often cross the border for needed tests if socialized medicine works so
well?

Post by Chris H

Post by Torence
Oh well, better that we decrease the surface
population.

That is a good idea generally

Not that I agree with the premise, nor did the utterer in the end, but I
thought Ebeneezer said, "surplus"?

Post by Chris H

Post by Torence

Post by Chris H
Neither far right nor far left* permit freedom of speech
(*Socialists are not far left)

Smile when ya say that, pardner.

NO it is a FACT we currently have a socialist government in the US

I would agree that the US has too many socialist aspects.

Cheers and wishes for a festive holiday,

Russ Kimball
Greenfield, MA
======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
[ Aren't we straying away from the Masonic in the conversation at tihs point? Take due notice and you know the rest. - Mod ]

[Torence]

China leaps to mind as does Russia. By no stretch of the most liberal mind are these particular countries democratic.

And, of course, there is an experiment underway to see if democracy
can be exported the way that a tyrant might impose a tribute. But
democracy is not a philosophy, an ideology, or an object to be
obtained. Democracy is merely a process by which a consensus opinion
can be reached. Once attained, that judgment must still stand the
tests of righteousness and time. If the participants over there choose
to pursue the same via a feudal or tribal counsel system, I do not
understand why their decision should be any concern of mine. Any
difference in approach, seems to me, to be more a debate of whether
politics is a science or an art.

Also which countries are not democratic or communist...

Myanmar, Thailand and North Korea come to mind.
Pakistan, India, Israel, Japan.

We won our release from tyranny, by treaty, in 1783.
AFAIR the blacks only got the vote in the last 50 years?

Unfortunately, by that Paris treaty, the British chose to abandon
those Negroes who assisted their army to their fate under Article 7.
Would they have been allowed a voice in the English government had
they brought them with them when they quit the colonies? Had Canada
been opened to them, they could have acquired the rights of suffrage
much sooner.

When were the anti communist witch hunts?

Your comment brings to the forefront whether or not a discussion of
Communism or Witch Craft is appropriate our Masonic forum, or even in
open lodge. If a ban on the discussion meant that no mention can be
made of the belief in an All-Wise Supreme Being, or our dependence on
His Bounty; then what would become of most of our ritual? If a similar
ban were imposed to keep a FreeMason from discussing in a general way,
his loyalty to his country, what would become of the admonition in our
Charges that we are true to the government of the country in which we
live, and of the Masonic denunciations which we find of plots against
the government?

When it was found that certain communists had Soviet handlers and that they
had infiltrated our government at the highest levels for the purpose influencing
outcomes that where more advantageous to foreign governments than to ours.

Well, under Stalin and Kruschev, the soviet brand of Communism was
dedicated to he task of overthrowing other governmental institutions,
by force, if need be; and rationalized the use of dishonest and
underhanded methods on the theory that the “end justifies the means.”
FreeMasonry honors Truth and every government that I have witnessed
could use a little more of that “Masonry” stuff in it.

Aren't we straying away from the Masonic in the conversation at tihs point?

IMHO, Masonry must be opposed to Communism or any other hostile
aggressive government, particularly one that seeks to intercede and
injure its own citizenship’s personal privacy. Men have a Divine
Heritage and as individuals and as aggregates in our club, we should
not be so circumscribed as to not be ready to be vocal and stand to
fight against attacks on the dignity of individual personality. Self
preservation is the first law of nature; and it is quite obvious that
should a Communist or Fascist form of government prevail, any
FreeMasonry under it would receive a death sentence. Therefore, most
US Masonic jurisdictions adopted a “Declaration of Principles” in 1950
that further explains its charitable, benevolent, educational,
religious and social aspects in order to “impress upon its membership
the principles of personal righteousness and personal responsibility”
and….”to translate principle and conviction into action.”

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon - Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 - Crete, Illinois
PM - Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 - Lansing, Illinois

[Jim Bennie]

Post by Torence
it is quite obvious that
should a Communist or Fascist form of government prevail, any
FreeMasonry under it would receive a death sentence.

Tell that to the Grand Lodge of Cuba.

Jim, Vancouver

[Chris H]

Post by Jim Bennie

Post by Torence
it is quite obvious that
should a Communist or Fascist form of government prevail, any
FreeMasonry under it would receive a death sentence.

Tell that to the Grand Lodge of Cuba.

And I think some Grand Lodges in Franc and Italy....

[Chris H]

In message

Post by Torence

Post by Chris H
When were the anti communist witch hunts?

Your comment brings to the forefront whether or not a discussion of
Communism or Witch Craft is appropriate our Masonic forum,

Both most certainly are. Which craft or Wicca is a valid religion and
there may be wiccan member of Lodges.

Post by Torence
or even in
open lodge.

Probably not.

Post by Torence

Post by Chris H
Aren't we straying away from the Masonic in the conversation at tihs point?

IMHO, Masonry must be opposed to Communism

Most certainly not. Freemasonry is agnostic with respect to religion
and politics. There are AFAIk comunists who are also Freemasons.

Post by Torence
or any other hostile
aggressive government,

Hostile governments yes. However many communist parties around the
world are no more aggressively anti Freemasonry than the Catholic
church. We have both Communist and Catholic members of the craft.

Post by Torence
particularly one that seeks to intercede and
injure its own citizenship’s personal privacy.

Then I assume you will be seeking to remove the current US government?

Post by Torence
Self
preservation is the first law of nature; and it is quite obvious that
should a Communist or Fascist form of government prevail, any
FreeMasonry under it would receive a death sentence.

Pure rubbish. There have been far left and far right parties in power in
many democracies who have not suppressed Freemasonry. There have also
been Communists, Republicans and Catholic Freemasons

[Torence]

Freemasonry is agnostic with respect to religion and politics.

But FreeMasons are far from neutral. In fact, the most notable
Masons have been the successful revolutionaries; and, we consider
ourselves unsuitable and unsubmissive material for the tyrants and
blood fiends. That is a statement of fact, not ego

Then I assume you will be seeking to remove the current US government?

That notion is a huge leap to a misguided conclusion unsupportable
by proof, not a casual assumption.
The US government is organized to favor the fact that men, industry
and our cooperative souls will develop over time and only psychotic
vanity would lead someone to propose to remove it in favor of
something static. We enjoy our quiet on-going revolution that will
remove the war mongers and bigots easily as the collective conscience
of the nation evolves and must see to it that our “republican
government,” at least, will persist. On the other hand, and I suppose
that it’s none of my business; but I do not see where it is useful for
a monarchy to endure much further into this century.
We will do well as a FreeMasonic organization to see that more
Masonry is put into this latest revision of government. There is no
requisite to that idea that more FreeMasons get elected. That would be
politics. But the respect for certain tenets, behind which we have
stood for eons, should be included in the dialogue and Masons and
Masonic Lodges should not feel so stifled as to not discuss these
thoughts. I suggest that we start by recognizing that our club has
enjoyed an immemorial quest to make the Four Freedoms part and parcel
of our experience and then extending those benefits to others. These
are, as already stated, Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Speech,
Freedom from Want and Freedom from Fear. Others causes could be added
to that list.
Wouldn’t we do well all around the world to see to it that
governmental policy improve men’s life in these four aspects? To state
so and work that way, IMHO, would not be “political” but answer the
demand for us as Masons to be truly altruistic.

Self preservation is the first law of nature; and it is quite obvious that
should a Communist or Fascist form of government prevail, any
FreeMasonry under it would receive a death sentence.

Pure rubbish. There have been far left and far right parties in power in
many democracies who have not suppressed Freemasonry. There have also
been Communists, Republicans and Catholic Freemasons.

I stand by my original statement. Speak to the Masons of Grand
Lodges that have existed in some of these countries, organized around
hurtful premises, about their history and experiences such as the Gran
Logia de la Republica de Venezuela, the Grand Lodge of Peru, the Grand
Lodge of China, the Grand Lodge of Iran, etc. and the conflict between
FreeMasonry and these forms of government is undeniable. We do a
disservice to our Brothers by not acknowledging that such societies
and freemasonry are incompatible. Their people would be more likely to
flourish, if the tenets we Masons have defended for ages were to work
their way into their law. As men as well as Masons we should not
permit ourselves to be quieted; but state so plainly regardless of the
context.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon – Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois

[Russ Kimball]

Self preservation is the first law of nature; and it is quite obvious that
should a Communist or Fascist form of government prevail, any
FreeMasonry under it would receive a death sentence.

Post by Chris H
Pure rubbish. There have been far left and far right parties in power in
many democracies who have not suppressed Freemasonry. There have also
been Communists, Republicans and Catholic Freemasons.

I stand by my original statement. Speak to the Masons of Grand
Lodges that have existed in some of these countries, organized around
hurtful premises, about their history and experiences such as the Gran
Logia de la Republica de Venezuela, the Grand Lodge of Peru, the Grand
Lodge of China, the Grand Lodge of Iran, etc. and the conflict between
FreeMasonry and these forms of government is undeniable. We do a
disservice to our Brothers by not acknowledging that such societies
and freemasonry are incompatible. Their people would be more likely to
flourish, if the tenets we Masons have defended for ages were to work
their way into their law. As men as well as Masons we should not
permit ourselves to be quieted; but state so plainly regardless of the
context.
Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon - Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 - Crete, Illinois
PM - Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 - Lansing, Illinois

Hear, hear. The "Forget-me-nots" that were used as a sign of recognition
between Germans Freemasons come to mind when their properties were taken and
the craft was driven underground when the Nazis came to power. Another
image that comes to mind is the display in the G.L. of Massachusetts of an
apron and hat from G.L. of China in Shanghai (I believe), The apron (purple
and gold) and top hat were present when that particular G.L. quickly opened
on a particular evening in 1948 and was called to recess (and is still at
recess AFAIK) as the members fled or went underground when their country's
regime changed.

Freemason's have always been freethinkers and that aspect of the craft has
always been perceived as dangerous by leaders of certain political
idealogies.

Fraternally,
Russ Kimball
PM - Republican Lodge
Greenfield, MA

[Alex Fisher]

Post by Chris H
In message

Post by Torence

Post by Chris H
When were the anti communist witch hunts?

Your comment brings to the forefront whether or not a discussion of
Communism or Witch Craft is appropriate our Masonic forum,

Both most certainly are. Which craft or Wicca is a valid religion and
there may be wiccan member of Lodges.

Two of them in my Lodge (that I know of for certain)...
[snip]
- --
Alex Fisher
Lodge Caledonian No. 14
United Grand Lodge of Queensland

[Chris H]

Post by Alex Fisher

Post by Chris H
In message

Post by Torence

Post by Chris H
When were the anti communist witch hunts?

Your comment brings to the forefront whether or not a discussion of
Communism or Witch Craft is appropriate our Masonic forum,

Both most certainly are. Which craft or Wicca is a valid religion and
there may be wiccan member of Lodges.

Two of them in my Lodge (that I know of for certain)...

We even have Catholics in one of mine!!!!
(Though according to the Pope they are going to hell)

[Dave Vick]

Post by Chris H

Post by Alex Fisher
Two of them in my Lodge (that I know of for certain)...

We even have Catholics in one of mine!!!!
(Though according to the Pope they are going to hell)

According to The Pope, so is most of Humanity.

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Alex Fisher

... Wicca is a valid religion and
there may be wiccan member of Lodges.

There's even a FAQ file on the question that is posted
regularly on the alt newsgroup.

Post by Alex Fisher
Two of them in my Lodge (that I know of for certain)...

I remember an eldery brother being so proud of the religious
diversity in our lodge. He said that we not only had some
Catholic members but Jews and Eastern Orthodox as well.

I smiled proudly at his comment because I happened to
know that in the room at the time were a Muslim, a Druid
and an Asatru. A couple of Wiccans had attended the
district officers school the week before. Religious diversity
in Masonry is very real. It's something I checked into before
I petitioned. I didn't want to join a fraternity that claimed
religious freedom and religious tolerances. I wanted to join
one that actually practices religious freedom and religious
tolerance and has the membership to reflect that.

Whoever switched the policy from admitting members of
one specific religion to admitting members of many, that
brother is one of my Masonic heroes.

[Torence]

Post by Doug Freyburger
Whoever switched the policy from admitting members of
one specific religion to admitting members of many, that
brother is one of my Masonic heroes.

The roots of the change could be found in the Thomas Harper affair.
I am fortunate to have a copy of an original 1805 Athol Constitutions
with a commentary by R. W. Brother Harper. He was the Deputy Grand
Master of the Ancients and a former Grand Steward of the Premier Grand
lodge as well. He was hauled before the Committee on Grand Charity
(why this body was the decider I do not know) on a complaint that he
was a member of his “alleged membership” of an irregular Grand Lodge.
Harper refused to give up his membership in the Ancients and rather
than consider whether or not they should expel him, suggested instead
that the Premier Grand Lodge consider Union with the Ancients.
The Committee on Charity agreed to open discussions but put a time
limit on the consolidation. The Ancients were in no immediate hurry;
and, as a result, Thomas Harper was expelled from the Premier Grand
Lodge when time ran out. Seven years later, in 1809, the Premier Grand
Lodge ordered its Lodges to reverse the ritual changes made in the
1730s and warranted a Lodge of Reconciliation to compare the ritual in
use to that of the “Other Grand Lodges,” acknowledging de facto that
the Ancients and York Grand Lodges existed (and later the Wiggans) and
that there were regular elements about them.
The Earl of Moria did the grunt work of the Union; but it was not
until 1813 with the introduction of the Duke of Sussex and the Premier
Grand Lodge and the Duke of Kent as the Grand Master of the Ancients
that Union could take place. The Lodge of Promulgation could not
resolve many issues, and left them to be decided by the Local Lodge’s
immemorial custom. Aside from multiple pswds. and gps., the status of
the Royal Arch as either a separate degree or a continuation of the
third remained undecided. Also, the Lodge of Reconciliation removed
most of the Christian references so that the Lodge of Promulgation
could dispense the new ritual starting in 1815 more expeditiously.
On our side of the big water, the changes came piecemeal. I have a
copy of the Masonic Funeral Service that was employed by the 1st Grand
Lodge of Illinois and by many of the Lodges during the 19th Century
where the Lodge Master proclaims, “..for I know that my Redeemer
Liveth; and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see
God.” Here in Illinois, this clearly Christian reference would not be
removed until 1915 (a copy of that Service, nearly our current
ceremonia, is in the proceedings for that year). The last revision was
by GM Emerson in 1928. Like most in his position, he sought a certain
immortality by passing a Code to make his book “unchangeable.”
Like Joseph Robbins here in Illinois, Thomas Harper had to put up
with a substantial infamy and a certain lack of vindication of his
character by his Brothers before these significant changes could be
made. For that reason, Harper is included on my list of Masonic
Heroes.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon – Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois

[Chris H]

In message

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Alex Fisher

... Wicca is a valid religion and
there may be wiccan member of Lodges.

There's even a FAQ file on the question that is posted
regularly on the alt newsgroup.

Post by Alex Fisher
Two of them in my Lodge (that I know of for certain)...

I remember an eldery brother being so proud of the religious
diversity in our lodge. He said that we not only had some
Catholic members but Jews and Eastern Orthodox as well.
I smiled proudly at his comment because I happened to
know that in the room at the time were a Muslim, a Druid
and an Asatru. A couple of Wiccans had attended the
district officers school the week before. Religious diversity
in Masonry is very real.

However many lodges are white middle class Christian and have been for
the last 50+ years and it does not occur to some masons that
non-Christians are members of the craft. This is simply because they
have never come across non-Christian Brethren and never had to actually
address the idea in the flesh.

Post by Doug Freyburger
It's something I checked into before
I petitioned. I didn't want to join a fraternity that claimed
religious freedom and religious tolerances.

Likewise

Post by Doug Freyburger
I wanted to join
one that actually practices religious freedom and religious
tolerance and has the membership to reflect that.

The all profess to... It is just with some they have never had to
actually address the issue.

Post by Doug Freyburger
Whoever switched the policy from admitting members of
one specific religion to admitting members of many, that
brother is one of my Masonic heroes.

That is something I wanted to look in to. UGLE when started was
Christian yet within a few years (3 I think) it went
non-denominational.

I wondered if it was the same people who did that as started it. This
would suggest they needed to be "Christian" to start it and get it
accepted and running but changed it to being open once established. Also
I wonder if this was the intended plan from the start of UGLE.

I also wanted to look into what the situation was prior to UGLE with
the antients and moderns

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Doug Freyburger
I remember an eldery brother being so proud of the religious
diversity in our lodge.  He said that we not only had some
Catholic members but Jews and Eastern Orthodox as well.
I smiled proudly at his comment because I happened to
know that in the room at the time were a Muslim, a Druid
and an Asatru.  A couple of Wiccans had attended the
district officers school the week before.  Religious diversity
in Masonry is very real.

However many lodges are white middle class Christian  and have been for
the last 50+ years and it does not occur to some masons that
non-Christians are members of the craft.  This is simply because they
have never come across non-Christian  Brethren and never had to actually
address the idea in the flesh.

To me this is one of the greatest beauties of Freemasonry
or of any organization. Because we don't discuss religion
in our lodges, we rarely do so in our buildings and often
don't in social situations outside of our buildings.

It's quite possible to sit next to a brother in lodge for a
couple of decades, hang out at lodge sponsored social
events, and never mention who is a member of what
faith. Then one day you're in your car driving around and
you see Brother A walking his family into the temple of
Religion X. Knowing he's a good man and a friend of two
decades, if you used to hold negative opinions of Religion
X before that moment those feelings suddenly get shot
out your car window in a moment of unplanned,
unexpected and extremely real personal growth.

Whenever I watch the news with events by extremists
I recall good brother E, family man, grandfather, builder
of churches and I know what I'm seeing on the news is
a problem of extremists not a problem with the religion
that gets mentioned.

Our neighborhoods may be while middle class Christian,
and thus certain members take that as their initial guess
about the membership. Guesses based on demographics
aren't a bad thing. Especially not when you don't think
those demographics are mandates. But you never know
who is and isn't, if ever, unless it comes up in some
outside sitution.

[Torence]

Post by Doug Freyburger
To me this is one of the greatest beauties of Freemasonry
or of any organization. Because we don't discuss religion
in our lodges, we rarely do so in our buildings and often
don't in social situations outside of our buildings.

Or do we? I raise the question because in de facto practice the
prohibition is not quite so absolute. Without religious discussion in
Lodge, then how would we open and close the lodge with prayer, or
illustrate our ceremonial with biblical passages? As Masons we are
taught to remember our Creator; and, if we are neglectful outside
lodge of that duty, then the Local Masonic Lodge is a place to refresh
that memory.
I dislike the term “Religious Tolerance” because it imposes upon
thoughtful men and women that there is something about religion that
needs to be tolerated. Religion for most of us Freemasons seems,
instead, to be a natural conclusion to our most considered
undertakings. Even if a Master Mason strays from faith, the Local
Lodge should not sit in judgment but be available for the day that his
thoughts come back around to the inevitable. You know, TGAOTU has a
message that seems to be quite useful for us. At the end of this post
I will share it.

Post by Doug Freyburger
I'm seeing on the news is
a problem of extremists not a problem with the religion
that gets mentioned.

Well, consider the source. I cannot watch the weather report
anymore because every trickle of rain or dusting of snow flurries is
made out to be the end of days. Reporters, whether in electronic or
print media, have a product to sell; and, you will get more a more in
depth understanding reading internet newsgroups and blogs on a subject
then from a business that will edit and sanitize the tone before
delivering some scant facts to you. Their personas are for show;
whereas here and at your Local Lodge, they are the real deal.
If our devotions are important to us, we Brothers can and should be
able to discuss such things that are on our minds understanding that
we are to steer clear of the usual subterfuges and ulterior motives to
which the profane usually resort. Dogma can be related and shared
between Brothers, as long as no one is out to recruit another into
their religion, or persuade others to separate a portion of us away
from us and form their own club somehow apart but within us.

Post by Doug Freyburger
Our neighborhoods may be while middle class Christian,

I have found no neighborhoods in the greater metropolitan Chicago
are that remain even remotely organized along these lines.

Post by Doug Freyburger
and thus certain members take that as their initial guess
about the membership.

Better meet a few neighbors.

Post by Doug Freyburger
Guesses based on demographics aren't a bad thing. Especially not when you don't think
those demographics are mandates. But you never know who is and isn't, if ever, unless
it comes up in some outside sitution.

Lodges no longer reflect the diversity of our neighborhoods;
because they are removed from them. Until 1978, here in Illinois,
Lodges owned the potential material of their communities and a
petitioner could not go across town to submit his petition. Lodges
have since been divided and hence may feel conquered. We should,
instead, encourage the material attending each lodge to relocate
though the use of plural memberships of they are allowed, to lodges
more readily available.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon – Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois

P.S. Oh yea, that message? Answer- “See you soon!”

[s***@gmail.com]

The original ban on speaking of religion came out of the religious
turmoil that was plaguing Great Britain in the years before and during
the formation of the UGLE. A person could, and many were, be killed
by his neighbors or the government for being on the wrong side of this
issue. From this also came the ban on the discussion of politics.
There were civil wars, revolutions and invasions during most of the
preceding 100 years over this issue, culminating in the King, James,
who was a Catholic, being driven from the throne by a Dutch invasion
force, placing the Protestants William and Mary (James' Daughter) on
the throne.

James II of England was also James of Scotland. Freemasonry in the
north, from York northward, was associated with James, rightly or
wrongly, and was suspect of disloyalty. The southern Freemasons
tended to support the establishment, whomever it was, so when William
assumed the throne, he got their support.

Discussions of religion were inseparable from discussions of politics,
and both could put the individual and the group in real danger.
People were still being hanged, drawn and quartered for such casual
discussions. At the very least, they caused trouble in a lodge, and
could result in fights and serious division in the fraternity. So
both discussions were banned.

Today, in the U.S., it's also a source of strife. Religious parties
don't officially exist, but religion colors party politics. Some
people have no tolerance for other's beliefs, with attitudes varying
from amusement to hostility. I've been in too many lodges where the
prayer to open or close lodge was decidedly Protestant Christian, even
using the Savior's name in the prayer, this while I was sitting next
to a member who was obviously Jewish. Nothing came of this, but I
know from experience the hurt that such discrimination can cause.

Thomas Paine, who wasn't a Freemason, said that humanity doesn't
require tolerance, which is thinly disguised intolerance, but absolute
freedom of conscience. So Mote it Be with our Craft as well.

Steve Brettell

[Chris H]

In message

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Doug Freyburger
I remember an eldery brother being so proud of the religious
diversity in our lodge.  He said that we not only had some
Catholic members but Jews and Eastern Orthodox as well.
I smiled proudly at his comment because I happened to
know that in the room at the time were a Muslim, a Druid
and an Asatru.  A couple of Wiccans had attended the
district officers school the week before.  Religious diversity
in Masonry is very real.

However many lodges are white middle class Christian  and have been for
the last 50+ years and it does not occur to some masons that
non-Christians are members of the craft.  This is simply because they
have never come across non-Christian  Brethren and never had to actually
address the idea in the flesh.

To me this is one of the greatest beauties of Freemasonry
or of any organization. Because we don't discuss religion
in our lodges, we rarely do so in our buildings and often
don't in social situations outside of our buildings.
It's quite possible to sit next to a brother in lodge for a
couple of decades, hang out at lodge sponsored social
events, and never mention who is a member of what
faith.
Our neighborhoods may be while middle class Christian,
and thus certain members take that as their initial guess
about the membership. Guesses based on demographics
aren't a bad thing. Especially not when you don't think
those demographics are mandates. But you never know
who is and isn't, if ever, unless it comes up in some
outside sitution.

So what VSL do you use? Obviously not the Bible if the candidate is
not Christian... Or for normal business (not degree ritual) if the WM
is not a Chtriastian?

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Chris H

Post by Doug Freyburger
To me this is one of the greatest beauties of Freemasonry
or of any organization.  Because we don't discuss religion
in our lodges, we rarely do so in our buildings and often
don't in social situations outside of our buildings.
It's quite possible to sit next to a brother in lodge for a
couple of decades, hang out at lodge sponsored social
events, and never mention who is a member of what
faith.
Our neighborhoods may be while middle class Christian,
and thus certain members take that as their initial guess
about the membership.  Guesses based on demographics
aren't a bad thing.  Especially not when you don't think
those demographics are mandates.  But you never know
who is and isn't, if ever, unless it comes up in some
outside sitution.

So what VSL do you use?

The VSL is the one the Tyler puts there when setting
up the lodge room. Being the Tyler at my lodge this
year it's the one that's been in use for the purpose for
roughly 80 years. It's King James Bible that is still in
very good shape for its age.

I get that a candidate or member can, while scheduling
a degree or visitation, request a specific VSL. The one
time I knew of a candidate who made such a request
I wish I had been able to find the time to attend the
degree. I've almost never heard of a member or visitor
making such a request and that includes brothers I
know to be Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Wiccan,
Druid and Asatru. By this I take it the lessons of religious
freedom worked in the hearts of these brothers.

Post by Chris H
Obviously not the Bible if the candidate is
not Christian...   Or for normal business (not degree ritual) if the WM
is not a Chtriastian?

I pondered over these questions for a while before I think
I got your point. What does it matter what faith what
member is? Scripture is scripture, sacred is sacred. I
have long understood that any reference to deity in Masonry
has a history of best effort non-denominalization in it. The
King James Bible there is a nod to the majority and/or to
the history that Masonry started in groups of Christians.
But the fact that I know and have sat in lodge with brothers
of other faiths with a KJB on the altar says it's definitely
not about the exact words written in the exact book.

The altar addresses the Grand Architect however each of
us see Him and the VSL on the altar. I understand that
the VSL is symbolic of my VSL and that principle applies
to the brothers of other faiths I've attended lodge with. If
an individual brother sees this issue more narrowly than
that, then maybe the King James is there as a nod to
brethren at that level of mind. Knowing for a fact that I
have sat in lodge with brothers of the assortment of faiths
I listed above and that the principle works for all of them,
I tend to think the principle works for the many Christian
brothers I've sat in lodge with as well. If it doesn't, yet
another beauty of Masonry is we don't discuss religion
and thus I don't find that out.

I don't think any of my brother friends would object if they
visited a lodge in a juridiction with a majority population
of religion X that used a VSL from religion X. There are
GL sponsored travel packages. While some have been
cruises some have been trips to places with a Jewish
majority. The trips tend to include lodge visits. Having a
Tenach or Torah or Koran on the altar doesn't turn off the
attending brothers that I have ever heard of. Scripture is
scripture, sacred is sacred, the Grand Architect is the
one we see in our hearts and that isn't limited by the
exact book on the altar.

I wish such a viewpoint were universal but I see from your
question it isn't. Unfortunately I have seen a case in person
where the book mattered too much - The night of my first
degree was a double with the other candidate a practicing
Buddhist. He said he'd be back for his Fellowcraft degree
when the GL authorized a Buddhist VSL. The California
GL passed a list of VSLs that included a Buddhist one but
to my knowledge he still hasn't presented himself for his
FC amd MM degrees after being informed of this.

Thing is, to me it's Masonry that's important. If any one
brother isn't up to the standard, none of us are perfect. I'm
careful to confirm the majority are open on such a topic
before affliliating with any one lodge. If one individual
brother isn't up to seeing the VSL as representing his
own relationship with the Grand Architect and he requires a
specific book on the altar, that one individual doesn't worry
me. Masonry as a whole practices the principle well enough
that there are members of many faiths. It's an ideal that
maybe none of us individually can live up to that Masonry as
a whole can and does live up to as a group. The fact that
we have as brothers members of the religions I listed above
and more tells me Masonry really does live up to the principle.

[Chris H]

In message

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Chris H

Post by Doug Freyburger
To me this is one of the greatest beauties of Freemasonry
or of any organization.  Because we don't discuss religion
in our lodges, we rarely do so in our buildings and often
don't in social situations outside of our buildings.
It's quite possible to sit next to a brother in lodge for a
couple of decades, hang out at lodge sponsored social
events, and never mention who is a member of what
faith.
Our neighborhoods may be while middle class Christian,
and thus certain members take that as their initial guess
about the membership.  Guesses based on demographics
aren't a bad thing.  Especially not when you don't think
those demographics are mandates.  But you never know
who is and isn't, if ever, unless it comes up in some
outside sitution.

So what VSL do you use?

The VSL is the one the Tyler puts there when setting
up the lodge room. Being the Tyler at my lodge this
year it's the one that's been in use for the purpose for
roughly 80 years. It's King James Bible that is still in
very good shape for its age.
I get that a candidate or member can, while scheduling
a degree or visitation, request a specific VSL. The one
time I knew of a candidate who made such a request
I wish I had been able to find the time to attend the
degree. I've almost never heard of a member or visitor
making such a request and that includes brothers I
know to be Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Wiccan,
Druid and Asatru. By this I take it the lessons of religious
freedom worked in the hearts of these brothers.

I was thinking more of a candidate who is not Christian who needs to
take an obligation

I rather like the VSL used by the {irregular} Grand Orient In France. It
is a book of blank pages so that every brother can "see" it was his own
VSL

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Chris H
Obviously not the Bible if the candidate is
not Christian...   Or for normal business (not degree ritual) if the WM
is not a Chtriastian?

I pondered over these questions for a while before I think
I got your point. What does it matter what faith what
member is? Scripture is scripture, sacred is sacred. I
have long understood that any reference to deity in Masonry
has a history of best effort non-denominalization in it. The
King James Bible there is a nod to the majority and/or to
the history that Masonry started in groups of Christians.
But the fact that I know and have sat in lodge with brothers
of other faiths with a KJB on the altar says it's definitely
not about the exact words written in the exact book.

I agree. The VSL is symbolic so you normally use the one that the
majority use.

Post by Doug Freyburger
I wish such a viewpoint were universal but I see from your
question it isn't.

In many cases it is because the brethren are a all white middle class
Christian and the lodge has never in living memory had anyone different
in so the question has never crossed their minds in 50 years of masonry.

I saw this when we nearly had a Moslem candidate. HE did not join only
for the reason his work life changed dramatically. Hopefully he will
come back when he is not commuting in and out of the country so much.

Post by Doug Freyburger
Unfortunately I have seen a case in person
where the book mattered too much -

That is sad.

Post by Doug Freyburger
The night of my first
degree was a double with the other candidate a practicing
Buddhist. He said he'd be back for his Fellowcraft degree
when the GL authorized a Buddhist VSL.

Does the GL have to authorise the VSL's?

Post by Doug Freyburger
The California
GL passed a list of VSLs that included a Buddhist one but
to my knowledge he still hasn't presented himself for his
FC amd MM degrees after being informed of this.

That is very sad..... I assume you do your normal Lodge meetings in the
3rd and he could not attend as an EA or FC?

Perhaps it was the attitudes of the other Freemasons in the Lodge put
him off or the words of the ritual and he though he had joined a
Christian sect?

Either way it is a pity to loose some one who diversifies the Masonic
pool

Post by Doug Freyburger
Thing is, to me it's Masonry that's important. If any one
brother isn't up to the standard, none of us are perfect. I'm
careful to confirm the majority are open on such a topic
before affliliating with any one lodge. If one individual
brother isn't up to seeing the VSL as representing his
own relationship with the Grand Architect and he requires a
specific book on the altar, that one individual doesn't worry
me.

I agree. That was my view when I was initiated. I am not Christian but I
saw the VSL as symbolic rather than literal. That said it works the
other way as the potential Moslem member we had wanted the Koran and it
was many of the o9ld guard who did not understand this and though they
could only use God's Bible.....

Post by Doug Freyburger
Masonry as a whole practices the principle well enough
that there are members of many faiths.

I think you are right.

Post by Doug Freyburger
It's an ideal that
maybe none of us individually can live up to that Masonry as
a whole can and does live up to as a group. The fact that
we have as brothers members of the religions I listed above
and more tells me Masonry really does live up to the principle.

Generally I agree with you. Though as I said there are some lodges
where they have not had to contemplate the question in living memory.
IT can come as a bit of a shock when they have to.

Though this thread stared because Some "Christians" black balled another
Christian because they did not like his brand of Christianity....

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Chris H

Post by Doug Freyburger
I get that a candidate or member can, while scheduling
a degree or visitation, request a specific VSL.  The one
time I knew of a candidate who made such a request
I wish I had been able to find the time to attend the
degree.  I've almost never heard of a member or visitor
making such a request and that includes brothers I
know to be Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Wiccan,
Druid and Asatru.  By this I take it the lessons of religious
freedom worked in the hearts of these brothers.

In this positive case a Muslim candidate had requested a
Koran be used on the altar for his obligations. The brethren
flocked to his degrees.

Post by Chris H
I was thinking more of a candidate who is not Christian who needs to
take an obligation

And yet I know of at least one Muslim and multiple Jews,
Wiccans and Asatru who took their degrees on the KJV
without any issues. Sacred is sacred, oaths are oaths.

Post by Chris H
I rather like the VSL used by the {irregular} Grand Orient In France. It
is a book of blank pages so that every brother can "see" it was his own
VSL

I like the theory behind it but I prefer the practice of the
Scottish Rite that has a bunch of VSLs on the altar.

Post by Chris H

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Chris H
Obviously not the Bible if the candidate is
not Christian...   Or for normal business (not degree ritual) if the WM
is not a Chtriastian?

I see this as a bit of a good/better/best situation.

Good - The freshly obligated brother sees that the book
he just obligated on is his own scripture.

Better - The candidate requests a specific scripture for
his obligation. I my case I chose to good through my
degrees cold so before my EA degree I didn't even know
there would be scripture involved in the degree so this
includes FC and MM degrees in some cases.

Best - The candidate understands the symbolism and
understands that whatever the book is, the intention is
to symbolize his own scripture.

Post by Chris H
In many cases it is because the brethren are a all white middle class
Christian and the lodge has never in living memory had anyone different
in so the question has never crossed their minds in 50 years of masonry.

Or because religion isn't discussed, not everyone puts
religious symbols on their cars, so no one really knows
if there are any non-Christians or not. I know plenty of
Christian brothers who don't discuss church events while
at lodge where the only way I know they are Christian
is discussion at an outside social event. With lapel pin
or bumper sticker or whatever it's easy to know who's a
member of what religion, but without any such signs it's
only a guess. In fact I think this to be the root of the
Masonic practice of freedom of religion and the root of
my myth of sitting next to Brother A for decades then
seeing him walk his family into Temple X.

Post by Chris H
I saw this when we nearly had a Moslem candidate.  HE did not join only
for the reason his work life changed dramatically. Hopefully he will
come back when he is not commuting in and out of the country so much.

Post by Doug Freyburger
 Unfortunately I have seen a case in person
where the book mattered too much -

That is sad.

Indeed. Brother EA J is a friendly and intelligent man who
would bring much to lodge.

Post by Chris H

Post by Doug Freyburger
The night of my first
degree was a double with the other candidate a practicing
Buddhist.  He said he'd be back for his Fellowcraft degree
when the GL authorized a Buddhist VSL.

Does the GL have to authorise the VSL's?

Interesting question. When California F&AM offered
legislation at an annual communication that gave a
list of explicitly authorized VSLs, most of the discussion
I heard was the list contained entries folks had never
heard of (Zen Avesta) and the implicit option that should
another VSL be requested it could be vetted by
members of the research lodge who have knowledge of
such topics.

I thought their choice of Buddhist scripture odd, but
that probably reflects my very modern reading on the
faith. I have seen "The Sayings of the Buddha" in
California hotel rooms in the same drawer with the
Gideon's Bible so I had expected that or perhaps the
Lotus Sutra.

The question of whether the GL had the authority or
if a VSL needs to be authorized was not brought up,
and the vote passed so there is now precedent in
California that that one GL does have the authority,
or at least the power, to approve VSLs.

I don't know what would happen if someone asked for
a book odd enough to be unlikely to get approved and
yet not so unpopular as to guarantee some brother
who object to proceeding with the degree. To even offer
suggestions of which faiths those might be is a bit too
controvertial, but I figure plenty of brothers can imagine
standing up and objecting to conferring the degrees if
a candidate asked for certain books.

Post by Chris H

Post by Doug Freyburger
The California
GL passed a list of VSLs that included a Buddhist one but
to my knowledge he still hasn't presented himself for his
FC amd MM degrees after being informed of this.

That is very sad..... I assume you do your normal Lodge meetings in the
3rd and he could not attend as an EA or FC?

I'm currently a member of a California and an Illinois lodge.
That's correct still in California the last I heard. This year
Illinois authorized opening for business in any degree.

Brother EA J has attended at least one social event of the
lodge since and I mentioned the change to him.

Post by Chris H
Perhaps it was the attitudes of the other Freemasons in the Lodge put
him off or the words of the ritual and he though he had joined a
Christian sect?

I can only hope the attitudes didn't put him off. His top
line signer is a practicing Buddhist who is now a PM in
at least two lodges in the district so I hope not and I think
my hope is well founded.

Post by Chris H
Either way it is a pity to loose some one who diversifies the Masonic
pool

Absolutely. California does not have an explicit purge
process for dropping EAs and FCs who fail to advance, so
every few years Pasadena 272 contacts everyone in the
pipeline who has disappeared and asks them if they wish
to be dropped from the rolls. Last I heard brother EA J
was willing to remain on the rolls. Hope springs eternal
in dusty archival files. ;^) I took my EA degree roughly
15 years ago now so the chances that brother EA J will
progress are very low by now.

Post by Chris H
... I saw the VSL as symbolic rather than literal.

As do I.

Post by Chris H
Though this thread stared because Some "Christians" black balled another
Christian because they did not like his brand of Christianity....

Very sad.

[Chris H]

In message

Post by Doug Freyburger
To even offer
suggestions of which faiths those might be is a bit too
controvertial, but I figure plenty of brothers can imagine
standing up and objecting to conferring the degrees if
a candidate asked for certain books.

Why would they object? If it is the sacred volume for a belief in a
Supreme Being?

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Chris H

Post by Doug Freyburger
The California
GL passed a list of VSLs that included a Buddhist one but
to my knowledge he still hasn't presented himself for his
FC amd MM degrees after being informed of this.

That is very sad..... I assume you do your normal Lodge meetings in the
3rd and he could not attend as an EA or FC?

I'm currently a member of a California and an Illinois lodge.
That's correct still in California the last I heard. This year
Illinois authorized opening for business in any degree.
Brother EA J has attended at least one social event of the
lodge since and I mentioned the change to him.

This is the difference in England We meet in the 1st unless we need to
go higher so as soon as the person is initiated they attend the lodge
and more often as not get told they are a steward! (Keeps them busy and
meeting people :-)

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Chris H
... I saw the VSL as symbolic rather than literal.

As do I.

Post by Chris H
Though this thread stared because Some "Christians" black balled another
Christian because they did not like his brand of Christianity....

Very sad.

I agree.

[Robert Jones]

In article
<bfb794a8-6641-4cc9-9eef-***@p23g2000prp.googlegroups.com>,
Doug Freyburger <***@yahoo.com> wrote:


<snip>

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Chris H

Post by Doug Freyburger
The night of my first
degree was a double with the other candidate a practicing
Buddhist.  He said he'd be back for his Fellowcraft degree
when the GL authorized a Buddhist VSL.

Does the GL have to authorise the VSL's?

Interesting question. When California F&AM offered
legislation at an annual communication that gave a
list of explicitly authorized VSLs, most of the discussion
I heard was the list contained entries folks had never
heard of (Zen Avesta) and the implicit option that should
another VSL be requested it could be vetted by
members of the research lodge who have knowledge of
such topics.
I thought their choice of Buddhist scripture odd, but
that probably reflects my very modern reading on the
faith. I have seen "The Sayings of the Buddha" in
California hotel rooms in the same drawer with the
Gideon's Bible so I had expected that or perhaps the
Lotus Sutra.
The question of whether the GL had the authority or
if a VSL needs to be authorized was not brought up,
and the vote passed so there is now precedent in
California that that one GL does have the authority,
or at least the power, to approve VSLs.

That sounds rather like a legislature repealing the "Law of Gravity" or
passing a law stating that PI = 3. Coming to the conclusion that
because a legislative body passed a motion it must have had the
authority to pass that motion is a circular argument. If a body was
acting "ultra vires" (beyond its powers) then any action it took was
null and void. I for one do not believe that any Grand Lodge is a
credible authority on matters of theology and scriptural legitimacy.

Bob Jones, SLGR (UGLE) etc etc

P.S. English Masons who have heard the explanation of the Second Degree
Tracing Board might recognise that apparently in King Solomon's days PI
did equal 3 if the dimensions of the two Great Pillars are to be taken
literally. :-)

[Torence]

Post by Robert Jones
That sounds rather like a legislature repealing the "Law of Gravity" or
passing a law stating that PI = 3. Coming to the conclusion that
because a legislative body passed a motion it must have had the
authority to pass that motion is a circular argument. If a body was
acting "ultra vires" (beyond its powers) then any action it took was
null and void. I for one do not believe that any Grand Lodge is a
credible authority on matters of theology and scriptural legitimacy.

Agreed, we have in this case another instance of a "Grand
Lodge," (meaning the representative body of the constituent Lodges),
assuming a prerogative that they do not possess. The Code does not
meet any of the analytical, historical or philosophical tests of
Masonic jurisprudence. Being subversive of the Principles of
FreeMasonry, I and probably the majority of the Brothers I have
dealings with, would hypothetically at least, (if in that
jurisdiction), consider the action null and void.
Brother Doug- Does California admit Past Masters or others into
Grand Lodge with voting rights? Illinois has repeatedly refused to do
so; and, rightly I think. IMHO, I do not believe that any sitting
Principle Officer or their authorized Proxy would think that they need
any such list or badly considered Code. I wonder if in our mutual
jurisdiction, we should adopt a provision that would require that to
submit proposals, one of the three signers should be a sitting
Principle Officer. Lately, our Grand Lodge (same definition) has
assumed prerogatives that they do not possess such as requiring Grand
Masters to expel Brothers experiencing a felony conviction, etc. that
imposes conditions upon Lodge Officers that the proposers never had to
deal with when they were Officers; and, again IMHO, we are better left
without.

Post by Robert Jones
P.S. English Masons who have heard the explanation of the Second Degree
Tracing Board might recognise that apparently in King Solomon's days PI
did equal 3 if the dimensions of the two Great Pillars are to be taken
literally. :-)

Mmmmmm. Pie. I like pie, especially with a glass of Christian
Brothers. But, I digress. Must be the cold here in Chicago.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon – Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No.1138 – Lansing, Illinois

Post by Robert Jones
--
Robert S. Jones, I.T. Security Consultant | Vox [phone]
Computing Services, Mile End Campus       | Fax [phone]
Queen Mary, University of London, U.K.    | GSM [phone]- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Robert Jones
That sounds rather like a legislature repealing the "Law of Gravity" or
passing a law stating that PI = 3. Coming to the conclusion that
because a legislative body passed a motion it must have had the
authority to pass that motion is a circular argument. If a body was
acting "ultra vires" (beyond its powers) then any action it took was
null and void. I for one do  not believe that any Grand Lodge is a
credible authority on matters of theology and scriptural legitimacy.

When I wrote up my discussion of the topic I did use the word
"power" not the word "authority". That was deliberate. If a
body pulls off an act, then it had the power to do so. That does
not say whether the body exceeded its authority to do so.

If this is taken as a list of VSLs that is pre-approved then maybe
a brother who's never heard of a candidate's faith will look it up
and no one in that lodge will reject the candidate for the wrong
reasons. I do not have a problem with this view of the list. It's
longer than the list of VSLs on the altar at a Scottist Rite
degree so I don't have a problem viewing it as an expansion of
existing precedent and therefore implying that even more could
be added to the list if needed or that local acceptance would
mean there is no need for GL approval.

If this is taken as a list of the only VSLs that should be approved
then how come there are Hindu brothers but the Baghavat Gita
or Uppanishads or Rig Veda were not listed? I'm a member of a
faith whose scripture was not on the list so should I have
resigned? I would become upset if a candidate asks for the
Baghavat Gita and gets rejected. And no way do I want to touch
an example like modern and controvertial Scientology might be.
The more I ponder discussing such a possibility the more I am
glad we don't discuss religion in lodge!

But when it comes to power versus authority, the members of
GL did vote to approve this item of legislation and these problems
did not even make the floor for discussion. I didn't even think of
the problems with it until over a year later and it's now been 10
years or so since then with no problems I've heard of.

Masonic religious freedom is heroic to me. This discussion
of the edges of letter of the law versus spirit of the law are
interesting to me but not all that crucial given the reality of
brothers of many faiths.

  Brother Doug- Does California admit Past Masters or others into
Grand Lodge with voting rights? Illinois has repeatedly refused to do
so; and, rightly I think.

California GL gives 4 votes per lodge plus a vote for every current
appointed GL officer and a vote for every current and past elected
GL officers. The 4 for each lodge are the WM, SW, JW and an
aggregate of all of the PMs in physical attendence. There are no
rules of how to handle it when more than one PM show up at
the annual communication.

I think giving all PMs a vote makes GL too conservative. I think
giving only the current officers a vote gives the grand line too
much influence through the new folks trusting authority. I think
the California system is as good a compromise as I've found.
Oh right, the way I first learned is the Goldilocks "just right"
answer. Funny how that works. ;^)

On the other hand I do agree with you on the stance that the
number of GL officers who get a vote should be strictly limited.

Post by Robert Jones
P.S. English Masons who have heard the explanation of the Second Degree
Tracing Board might recognise that apparently in King Solomon's days PI
did equal 3 if the dimensions of the two Great Pillars are to be taken
literally. :-)

That's a hilarious entry in the Old Testament. They understood
approximation and numbers of significant digits! I like the fact
that engineers using crude sliderules appear in such an old and
revered book. ;^)

  Mmmmmm. Pie. I like pie, especially with a glass of Christian
Brothers. But, I digress. Must be the cold here in Chicago.

CB goes well in egg nog. For straight sippin' I'll go with a
fancier brandy. On the other hand on my honey moonmy
wife and I toured the winery/brewery where Presidente
brandy and wine are made so I have a soft spot for that
brand even though it isn't a world renowned brand.

[Chris H]

In message

Post by Doug Freyburger
If this is taken as a list of the only VSLs that should be approved
then how come there are Hindu brothers but the Baghavat Gita
or Uppanishads or Rig Veda were not listed? I'm a member of a
faith whose scripture was not on the list so should I have
resigned?

There should not be a list. The Lodges should be free to use what ever
VSL the candidate's faith requires

Post by Doug Freyburger
I would become upset if a candidate asks for the
Baghavat Gita and gets rejected.

It should not be rejected.

[Torence]

It's longer than the list of VSLs on the altar at a Scottist Rite degree so I don't have a
problem viewing it as an expansion of existing precedent and therefore implying that
even more could be added to the list if needed or that local acceptance would mean
there is no need for GL approval.

What VSL a man selects to take his obligation upon is between him
and his Maker. If the list states that it is a list ¡§but not limited
to¡š these texts, then there is no real harm in drafting one.
But, the Holy Bible is an indispensable part of our furniture.
Analytically, historically, and philosophically as long as it is
present, any additions, as in the case of the Eagle Feather, should
not matter to any other observer. But nothing from the list should
replace our principle VSL especially a book of blank pages, or, as was
tried in some quasi-Masonic organizations, the Constitution. These are
not suitable substitutes and removing our Principle VSL dissolves the
Lodge as a Masonic one. The men meeting in such a place are at best
attending a gathering at some other type of civic organization.

If this is taken as a list of the only VSLs that should be approved then how come there
are Hindu brothers but the Baghavat Gita or Uppanishads or Rig Veda were not listed?

Such a list cannot be drafted. If you must have one the ¡§not
limited to¡š caveat must be employed. But what of the practice in your
jurisdictions that uses some other text during degree work? At my
lodge, we would swing the Holy Bible around to face the Master and lay
the Book of Mormon or other VSL in front of the candidate. We would
not remove the Holy Bible all together. How do others do this and what
does your Grand Lecturers teach is the correct practice?

I'm a member of a faith whose scripture was not on the list so should I have resigned?
I would become upset if a candidate asks for the Baghavat Gita and gets rejected.

I suppose that some test should be applied for seriousness. I would
hate to think that someone could get away with asking for the Karma
Sutra or even the all mighty American Dollar as their object of
worship. If they had them when I was raised (1985), then perhaps I
should have tossed a Euro onto the podium. These days they trump the
buck.

But when it comes to power versus authority, the members of GL did vote to approve
this item of legislation and these problems did not even make the floor for discussion.

Vanity of vanities, all is vanity. In our time, we have seen
generations of well meaning Brothers pass such things in the waning
years of their life in order to dictate behavior to future
generations, dismantle benefits for younger members, etc. As they
leave this earthly plane, others are left to pick up the pieces. When
I gain another twenty or thirty years, TGAOTU willing, I do not plan
to suddenly appear and level new restrictions or obligations upon
those behind me.
Age, both physically and Masonically, is a legitimate qualification
to consider for office. As we see fewer snow caps, thin or hairless
heads at Grand Lodge, and more of the brown stuff on top, so should we
see a similar change reflected in our leadership. (Of course, Miss
Clairol says that only a Brother¡Šs hairdresser knows for sure.) If, as
in my jurisdiction, we hold the organization of Grand Lecturers to
their chartered mandate that they ¡§not be a college for Grand Line
Officers,¡š and instead mix up the line with others who have not been
routed through this group or the rites, then we should see more
leadership of the sort that we had in Illinois Masonry¡Šs hey-day such
as GMs Joseph Robbins, D.C. Creigar, John Corson Smith, Henry Burnap
and others.

Masonic religious freedom is heroic to me.

Aside from the Four Freedoms that I regularly list, Religion,
Speech, from Want and From Fear, there are others that might be
included such as the Freedom of Assembly or Freedom of the Press.
Freedom of Selection with who we are to hold intercourse also fits the
bill analytically, historically and philosophically. For Masonry to
make statements along these lines may or may not be construed as
political. We would have to hash that out. To do so would be
additionally heroic for the twenty-first century FreeMason.

California GL gives 4 votes per lodge plus a vote for every current appointed GL officer and a vote for every current and past elected GL officers.

Ancient Craft Freemasonry ¡§Rightfully¡š consists of a Grand Lodge
made up of the Principle Officers of the Lodge or their proxies with a
Grand Master Administrator at the head. The sooner we get our
jurisdictions back to this condition, the better we will be enabled to
revitalize our Masonic communities.

On the other hand I do agree with you on the stance that the number of GL officers who
get a vote should be strictly limited.

Thanks. Like Mrs. Slocumb, I have always been unanimous in my
opinion. ļ

I like the fact that engineers using crude sliderules appear in such an old and revered book.

By, it we are reminded of that Life is an algorithm; and when we
ascend to eternity we are but one number within a perfect whole. I am
the dreadful 7, because, legend tells us, seven ate nine.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon ¡V Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 ¡V Crete, Illinois
PM ¡V Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 ¡V Lansing, Illinois

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Torence

It's longer than the list of VSLs on the altar at a Scottist Rite degree so I don't have a
problem viewing it as an expansion of existing precedent and therefore implying that
even more could be added to the list if needed or that local acceptance would mean
there is no need for GL approval.

If the list states that it is a list ¡§but not limited
to¡š these texts, then there is no real harm in drafting one.

Agreed. When the list past I had not thought through any of
the issues discussed in this sub-thread.

Post by Torence
    But, the Holy Bible is an indispensable part of our furniture.

In the American jurisdictions that you and I have attended. The
term VSL exists for a reason and that's it. A juridiction in a
region with a majority population of Religion X would naturally
use the scripture of Religion X on their altar. In the case of
American (all of North and South Americas I think not just US
in this context) Religion X is Christianity so our scripture is the
Bible. But if I were to visit a lodge in a region with majority
Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu or other faith I would have every
reason to expect them to use their scripture and I would have
no objection to the practice. The VSL, whatever scripture it
is, stands for my scripture and for my personal relationship to
the Great Architect. That does not change if the book there is
sacred to the majority of the members but happens to be one
I didn't expect.

And it can be as simple as a Spanish/German/French speaking
lodge using a Bible in their own language. I know Illinois
bylaws require English but adjacent jurisdictions don't. Note to
self, keep an eye out for a group going to visit the German
speaking lodge in Milwaukee and join them on their visit. Look
at the VSL and find out what language it's in ...

Post by Torence
Analytically, historically, and philosophically as long as it is
present, any additions, as in the case of the Eagle Feather, should
not matter to any other observer. But nothing from the list should
replace our principle VSL

That is how the practice is written in California when the list
of preauthorized VSLs was approved.

I have not heard the sad case of the eagle feather being
dissaproved and I don't know if it was disapproved at the local
lodge level or at the GL level. Very sad either way but it does
not reflect conversations I had with members of the grand
line at the time I was attending California annual
communications.

Post by Torence
especially a book of blank pages,

While I appreciate the vision in it because I understand that
the VSL is symbolic of my own scripture and my own
personal relationship with the GAOTU and I would wish all
of the brethren to take this view, the fact is they do not. It
is pragmatically necessary for the VSL to reflect the majority.

Post by Torence

If this is taken as a list of the only VSLs that should be approved then how come there
are Hindu brothers but the Baghavat Gita or Uppanishads or Rig Veda were not listed?

   Such a list cannot be drafted.

It can not be complete at any one point. Faiths evolve across
history and "Masonry, notwithstanding, survives".

Post by Torence
But what of the practice in your
jurisdictions that uses some other text during degree work? At my
lodge, we would swing the Holy Bible around to face the Master and lay
the Book of Mormon or other VSL in front of the candidate. We would
not remove the Holy Bible all together. How do others do this and what
does your Grand Lecturers teach is the correct practice?

I don't know the details of the swing you mention but the
California rule is for both to be present. I took that rule to be
an emulation of what I have seen in Scottish Rite set ups.

Post by Torence

I'm a member of a faith whose scripture was not on the list so should I have resigned?
I would become upset if a candidate asks for the Baghavat Gita and gets rejected.

   I suppose that some test should be applied for seriousness.

Very tough to pull off in fairness. The Romans fed Christians to
the lions largely because it was too new a faith at that time (plus
other reasons to be sure). Several centuries from now if
Scientology has stopped being controvertial maybe it will be
considered a natural part of a such list. I think many reading
SOF would feel the eagle feather should pass a seriousness
test but I doubt opinions would be unanimous.

Post by Torence
I would
hate to think that someone could get away with asking for the Karma
Sutra

Depending on the devotion of the candidate, of course. A practice
that honors God by perfecting Love by means of making love in
ways that include prayer and meditation and tenderness and
creativity and the exertions of yoga seems not bad to me. Would
that any imagined candidate bringing it forward would see it as
such, though. It's far too popular for less spiritual reasons for
that to be the immediate assumption. Sigh.

Post by Torence
or even the all mighty American Dollar as their object of
worship.

A created idea/artifact not a being with a personal relationship.
Easily discarded as failing any seriousness rule. It might not
even pass any 12-step groups broad acceptance of any "higher
power" as insufficiently spiritual.

Post by Torence

But when it comes to power versus authority, the members of GL did vote to approve
this item of legislation and these problems did not even make the floor for discussion.

   Vanity of vanities, all is vanity. In our time, we have seen
generations of well meaning Brothers pass such things in the waning
years of their life in order to dictate behavior to future
generations, dismantle benefits for younger members, etc. As they
leave this earthly plane, others are left to pick up the pieces. When
I gain another twenty or thirty years, TGAOTU willing, I do not plan
to suddenly appear and level new restrictions or obligations upon
those behind me.

And yet there's no indication it was a restriction rather than an
expansion.

Post by Torence
  If, as
in my jurisdiction, we hold the organization of Grand Lecturers to
their chartered mandate that they ¡§not be a college for Grand Line
Officers,¡š and instead mix up the line with others who have not been
routed through this group or the rites, then we should see more
leadership of the sort that we had in Illinois Masonry¡Šs hey-day such
as GMs Joseph Robbins, D.C. Creigar, John Corson Smith, Henry Burnap
and others.

That's another sub-thread for heroes.

I don't see the Illinois grand line as being restricted to members
of the ritual committee even if all in recent time have been
ritualists first. That may be my history of starting in California
where the Inspector (DDGM) answers to separate chains of
command for business issues and for ritual issues.

[Torence]

A juridiction in a region with a majority population of Religion X would naturally use the scripture
of Religion X on their altar. In the case of American (all of North and South Americas I think not
just US in this context) Religion X is Christianity so our scripture is the Bible. But if I were to
visit a lodge in a region with majority Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu or other faith I would have every
reason to expect them to use their scripture and I would have no objection to the practice.

However, our ForeBrothers were no doubt Trinitarians. By immemorial
usage, therefore, not legislation, the Holy Bible must be present in a
Masonic Lodge, or at least one that boasts itself to be of the
“Ancient Craft” or “Ancient York” Mason sort. An additional VSL used
during degree work is the only decent thing to do; but for general
business the Holy Bible is the only suitable book to be displayed;
otherwise the Ancient Craft Mason Lodge dissolves into some other kind
of club.

I know Illinois bylaws require English but adjacent jurisdictions don't.

Yes, according to the “wisdom” of past Grand lodge decision here in
Illinois, Spanish speaking Lodges here would be Papist and those of
the German sort would likely conspire to support the Kaiser.

Note to self, keep an eye out for a group going to visit the German speaking lodge in Milwaukee and join them on their visit. Look at the VSL and find out what language it's in ...

We had one in Reading, PA, “Teutonic” Lodge. They used a Holy Bible
in English when I was there; but I do not know if they brought out a
German one on other occasions.

It is pragmatically necessary for the VSL to reflect the majority.

I do not see the topic as open to a majority vote; but one of
ancient usage. Playing around with the furniture would open the door
to substitute something other than the movable or immovable pieces.
Even with a majority vote, a Steward cannot substitute for a Master.
(Though, I understand that in England the Steward’s Lodges sometimes
fail to remember that condition in the way we are to do business.)

Faiths evolve across history and "Masonry, notwithstanding, survives".

You have no compunction about teaching Evolution then I suppose.
Someone pass me a banana.

I took that rule to be an emulation of what I have seen in Scottish Rite set ups.

You know that in Illinois, there is quite a history of the Scottish
Rite desiring to invade the jurisdiction of the Symbolic Lodge that
goes back one hundred and fifty years. I would be cautious about using
the AASR as a model for any Ancient Craft Masonic Lodge practice.

The Romans fed Christians to the lions largely because it was too new a faith at that time.

Historically, there is no archeological support that the Romans fed
Christians to big animals. Funny though how at the time, Christianity
was considered a mere “Superstition” and the State ideology maintained
a “Religion.” Nowadays, we think their beliefs the false notion.
Anderson understood this when he stated that whereas in the past
Masons thought it best that candidates belong to the faith of their
country; but that now we think it best that he belong to the one that
all men can agree upon. If Masonic Lodges were to have existed in
Roman times, they would do their work in Latin; and therefore be
subversive to worship Caesar as a God the same way that Mandarin
speaking lodges today would conspire to honor Mao. Or at least that is
the thought here in this part of the Old Northwest Territory.
Maybe the Brits were right and we should have left this area to the
First People.

I don't see the Illinois grand line as being restricted to members of the ritual committee even if all in
recent time have been ritualists first. That may be my history of starting in California where the
Inspector (DDGM) answers to separate chains of command for business issues and for ritual issues.

Then try, My Brother, this election year, to nominate a name that
has not gone through our distorted selection process. Not for the
expectation to see them succeed in obtaining, for example, the spot of
Junior Grand Warden; but to examine the commentary and what gets
mentioned in this “non-politcking” jurisdiction, as their
disqualifications.
Doing so has in the past exposed the machinery employed by Past
Transients and though unsuccessful in the election, such an
examination would, hypothetically, aid to reshape the way twenty-first
century chooses leadership, IMHO, back to the original format.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon – Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois
.

[Chris H]

In message

Post by Torence

A juridiction in a region with a majority population of Religion X
would naturally use the scripture
of Religion X on their altar. In the case of American (all of North
and South Americas I think not
just US in this context) Religion X is Christianity so our scripture
is the Bible. But if I were to
visit a lodge in a region with majority Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu or
other faith I would have every
reason to expect them to use their scripture and I would have no
objection to the practice.

However, our ForeBrothers were no doubt Trinitarians.

Some were and many were not.

Post by Torence
By immemorial
usage, therefore, not legislation, the Holy Bible must be present in a
Masonic Lodge, or at least one that boasts itself to be of the
“Ancient Craft” or “Ancient York” Mason sort.

Not at all. Freemasonry is specifically not attached to any religion.
There are many lodges around the world and indeed in the UK that do not
have the Bible as the VSL

Post by Torence
An additional VSL used
during degree work is the only decent thing to do; but for general
business the Holy Bible is the only suitable book to be displayed;

Not at all Many Lodges do not have a Bible as the VSL

Post by Torence
otherwise the Ancient Craft Mason Lodge dissolves into some other kind
of club.

That is completely WRONG

[David Simpson]

[Default] On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:51:01 CST, Torence

Post by Torence
You have no compunction about teaching Evolution then I suppose.
Someone pass me a banana.

Certainly not but I do have a compunction about teaching creationism.
I'm glad you like bananas.

[Torence]

Post by David Simpson
Certainly not but I do have a compunction about teaching creationism.
I'm glad you like bananas.

Nature has never read the Declaration of Independence. It continues to
make us unequal.
Never does nature say one thing and wisdom another.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon - Auburn park Lodge No. 789 - Crete, Illinois
PM - Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 - Lansing, Illinois

[David Simpson]

[Default] On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 09:29:23 CST, Torence

Post by Torence

Post by David Simpson
Certainly not but I do have a compunction about teaching creationism.
I'm glad you like bananas.

Nature has never read the Declaration of Independence. It continues to
make us unequal.
Never does nature say one thing and wisdom another.

Which is why I consider Creationism to be foolish.

[Chris H]

Post by David Simpson
[Default] On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 09:29:23 CST, Torence

Post by Torence

Post by David Simpson
Certainly not but I do have a compunction about teaching creationism.
I'm glad you like bananas.

Nature has never read the Declaration of Independence. It continues to
make us unequal.
Never does nature say one thing and wisdom another.

Which is why I consider Creationism to be foolish.

Which version of creation? The real one where God did it or the version
in the Bible & Koran?

[BES]

David Simpson writes

Post by David Simpson
Which is why I consider Creationism to be foolish.

Which version of creation? The real one where God did it or the version
in the Bible & Koran?

The one written by L Ron Hubbard

[Chris H]

In message <Dmsdl.6249$***@edtnps83>, BES <***@nospam.ever>
writes

Post by BES

David Simpson writes

Post by David Simpson
Which is why I consider Creationism to be foolish.

Which version of creation? The real one where God did it or the version
in the Bible & Koran?

The one written by L Ron Hubbard

:-)

[t***@gmail.com]

Post by s***@gmail.com
A Masonic Hero of mine, which may raise some eye-brows and some
controversy, is Joseph Smith, Jr.

The Mormons eleaborate extensively on the biblical creation story.
Whereas our degree work is organized around the Hiramaic Legend, their
Temple Edowment, complete with our degree architechture, emblems,
modes of recognition, etc. explains more about the characters than can
be read in William Tinsdale's best selling book. If you can get a copy
of their service, you will find it an entertaining read.
My understanding is that these days they have it as a professionally
produced epic movie. I would not condone our work going that way and
am pleased that none of the Festival performing jurisidctions have
organized a movie production. At least not yet.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon - Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 - Crete, Illinois
PM - Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 - Lansing, Illinois

[s***@gmail.com]

Post by s***@gmail.com
A Masonic Hero of mine, which may raise some eye-brows and some
controversy, is Joseph Smith, Jr.

   The Mormons eleaborate extensively on the biblical creation story.
Whereas our degree work is organized around the Hiramaic Legend, their
Temple Edowment, complete with our degree architechture,

My point here was not theological or esoteric. Just plain
brotherhood. One of the reasons that Joseph Smith, Jr. loved
Freemasonry is that he didn't have to be in charge. In the lodge, he
was chaplain. The controversy over who influenced whom about Mormon
ritual and theology is one that no interested party will agree on.
The fellowship that Freemasonry offers is what I'm talking about.

SteveB
Maryland

[s***@gmail.com]

Post by David Simpson
[Default] On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 09:29:23 CST, Torence

Post by Torence

Post by David Simpson
Certainly not but I do have a compunction about teaching creationism.
I'm glad you like bananas.

Nature has never read the Declaration of Independence. It continues to
make us unequal.
Never does nature say one thing and wisdom another.

Which is why I consider Creationism to be foolish.

Which version of creation?  The real one where God did it or the version
in the Bible & Koran?
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Which version from the Bible? Different ones in Gen 1 and Gen 2.
And, in the words of "Inherit the Wind," Where did Mrs. Caine come
from? Did someone pull off another creation over in the next county?

[Chris H]

In message

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Torence
    But, the Holy Bible is an indispensable part of our furniture.

In the American jurisdictions that you and I have attended. The
term VSL exists for a reason and that's it. A juridiction in a
region with a majority population of Religion X would naturally
use the scripture of Religion X on their altar.

Is it an "alter"?

Post by Doug Freyburger
And it can be as simple as a Spanish/German/French speaking
lodge using a Bible in their own language. I know Illinois
bylaws require English but adjacent jurisdictions don't.

In England the Lodge uses the VSL that the members find most
appropriate. The GL would be told to "go away" if it insisted on
mandating what could and could not be used as the VSL

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Torence
especially a book of blank pages,

While I appreciate the vision in it because I understand that
the VSL is symbolic of my own scripture and my own
personal relationship with the GAOTU and I would wish all
of the brethren to take this view, the fact is they do not. It
is pragmatically necessary for the VSL to reflect the majority.

Agreed.

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Torence
I would
hate to think that someone could get away with asking for the Karma
Sutra

That is not a religious book. IT is a book on how a gentleman runs his
house. It is just that everyone seems to focus only on the sexy bits

[Robert Jones]

In article

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Robert Jones
That sounds rather like a legislature repealing the "Law of Gravity" or
passing a law stating that PI = 3. Coming to the conclusion that
because a legislative body passed a motion it must have had the
authority to pass that motion is a circular argument. If a body was
acting "ultra vires" (beyond its powers) then any action it took was
null and void. I for one do  not believe that any Grand Lodge is a
credible authority on matters of theology and scriptural legitimacy.

When I wrote up my discussion of the topic I did use the word
"power" not the word "authority". That was deliberate. If a
body pulls off an act, then it had the power to do so. That does
not say whether the body exceeded its authority to do so.
If this is taken as a list of VSLs that is pre-approved then maybe
a brother who's never heard of a candidate's faith will look it up
and no one in that lodge will reject the candidate for the wrong
reasons. I do not have a problem with this view of the list. It's
longer than the list of VSLs on the altar at a Scottist Rite
degree so I don't have a problem viewing it as an expansion of
existing precedent and therefore implying that even more could
be added to the list if needed or that local acceptance would
mean there is no need for GL approval.
If this is taken as a list of the only VSLs that should be approved
then how come there are Hindu brothers but the Baghavat Gita
or Uppanishads or Rig Veda were not listed? I'm a member of a
faith whose scripture was not on the list so should I have
resigned? I would become upset if a candidate asks for the
Baghavat Gita and gets rejected. And no way do I want to touch
an example like modern and controvertial Scientology might be.
The more I ponder discussing such a possibility the more I am
glad we don't discuss religion in lodge!
But when it comes to power versus authority, the members of
GL did vote to approve this item of legislation and these problems
did not even make the floor for discussion. I didn't even think of
the problems with it until over a year later and it's now been 10
years or so since then with no problems I've heard of.
Masonic religious freedom is heroic to me. This discussion
of the edges of letter of the law versus spirit of the law are
interesting to me but not all that crucial given the reality of
brothers of many faiths.

In England and Wales, or to be precise, in the Lodges in which I am a
Past Master, a candidate at interview is asked if he has a belief in a
Supreme Being. The answer "no" brings proceedings to a shuddering halt!


Assuming a positive response, he is then told that once accepted, he
will be asked to take a solemn obligation with his hand on the Holy
Book (VSL if you will) of his faith. We explain that a Christian Bible
will always be open in the Lodge, but if that is not HIS "Holy Book"
then he can bring his own or we will obtain one. Last Saturday I
attended an Initiation where the Bible and Qu'ran were both opened. The
Lodge purchased the Islamic text, and presented it to the newly
initiated Brother at the end of his ceremony.

Briefly, we ask the candidate to use the book which HE deems to be
Holy. It is not a question what we think, or of what Grand Lodge might
think.

Post by Doug Freyburger

  Brother Doug- Does California admit Past Masters or others into
Grand Lodge with voting rights? Illinois has repeatedly refused to do
so; and, rightly I think.

California GL gives 4 votes per lodge plus a vote for every current
appointed GL officer and a vote for every current and past elected
GL officers. The 4 for each lodge are the WM, SW, JW and an
aggregate of all of the PMs in physical attendence. There are no
rules of how to handle it when more than one PM show up at
the annual communication.
I think giving all PMs a vote makes GL too conservative. I think
giving only the current officers a vote gives the grand line too
much influence through the new folks trusting authority. I think
the California system is as good a compromise as I've found.
Oh right, the way I first learned is the Goldilocks "just right"
answer. Funny how that works. ;^)
On the other hand I do agree with you on the stance that the
number of GL officers who get a vote should be strictly limited.

Under UGLE rules, the present Master and Wardens of all Lodges, and all
Past Masters who are still subscribing members of any English
Constitution Lodge may attend and vote at all meetings of the Grand
Lodge.

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Robert Jones
P.S. English Masons who have heard the explanation of the Second Degree
Tracing Board might recognise that apparently in King Solomon's days PI
did equal 3 if the dimensions of the two Great Pillars are to be taken
literally. :-)

That's a hilarious entry in the Old Testament. They understood
approximation and numbers of significant digits! I like the fact
that engineers using crude sliderules appear in such an old and
revered book. ;^)

  Mmmmmm. Pie. I like pie, especially with a glass of Christian
Brothers. But, I digress. Must be the cold here in Chicago.

CB goes well in egg nog. For straight sippin' I'll go with a
fancier brandy. On the other hand on my honey moonmy
wife and I toured the winery/brewery where Presidente
brandy and wine are made so I have a soft spot for that
brand even though it isn't a world renowned brand.

[Chris H]

Post by Robert Jones
In England and Wales, or to be precise, in the Lodges in which I am a
Past Master, a candidate at interview is asked if he has a belief in a
Supreme Being. The answer "no" brings proceedings to a shuddering halt!

Not "God" but a "Supreme Being" I note. I think some areas even ask
about afterlife etc

Post by Robert Jones
Assuming a positive response, he is then told that once accepted, he
will be asked to take a solemn obligation with his hand on the Holy
Book (VSL if you will) of his faith. We explain that a Christian Bible
will always be open in the Lodge, but if that is not HIS "Holy Book"
then he can bring his own or we will obtain one. Last Saturday I
attended an Initiation where the Bible and Qu'ran were both opened. The
Lodge purchased the Islamic text, and presented it to the newly
initiated Brother at the end of his ceremony.
Briefly, we ask the candidate to use the book which HE deems to be
Holy. It is not a question what we think, or of what Grand Lodge might
think.

At this point you may to find out what (if any) his religion is. Some
people may believe in a supreme being but not subscribe to any
particular religion. As far as I know there are members of al the main
faiths in English freemasonry but in addition Pagans, Druids, Wiccans
and other less well known groups.

However religion is not permitted to be discussed so the only time it
may come up is when some one who uses a book other than the bible needs
to take an obligation. If, like me, the candidate sees the VSL as
symbolic and not literal then they may be happy to use the Bible and the
question of the candidates faith will never be asked.


So for brethren to black ball some one because they did not like branch
of an established church he attendees seems very un-masinoc and maybe
their continuing membership should be discussed?

[Richard Watson]

A Brother who came to Oregon from California is a native American and to him, the eagle feather, is his sacred "VSL". But the GL of California would not let him take his obligation on it.

Oregon code also delineates "approved" VSLs, if I recall correctly.

Richard Watson
Research Lodge of Oregon No. 198
Kenton Lodge No. 145

-----Original Message-----
From: sof-mail-***@mail.cybermango.org [mailto:sof-mail-***@mail.cybermango.org] On Behalf Of Robert Jones
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:59 PM
To: sof-***@mail.cybermango.org
Subject: Re: [sof] Heroes

In article
<bfb794a8-6641-4cc9-9eef-***@p23g2000prp.googlegroups.com>,
Doug Freyburger <***@yahoo.com> wrote:


<snip>

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Chris H

Post by Doug Freyburger
The night of my first
degree was a double with the other candidate a practicing
Buddhist. He said he'd be back for his Fellowcraft degree
when the GL authorized a Buddhist VSL.

Does the GL have to authorise the VSL's?

Interesting question. When California F&AM offered
legislation at an annual communication that gave a
list of explicitly authorized VSLs, most of the discussion
I heard was the list contained entries folks had never
heard of (Zen Avesta) and the implicit option that should
another VSL be requested it could be vetted by
members of the research lodge who have knowledge of
such topics.
I thought their choice of Buddhist scripture odd, but
that probably reflects my very modern reading on the
faith. I have seen "The Sayings of the Buddha" in
California hotel rooms in the same drawer with the
Gideon's Bible so I had expected that or perhaps the
Lotus Sutra.
The question of whether the GL had the authority or
if a VSL needs to be authorized was not brought up,
and the vote passed so there is now precedent in
California that that one GL does have the authority,
or at least the power, to approve VSLs.

That sounds rather like a legislature repealing the "Law of Gravity" or
passing a law stating that PI = 3. Coming to the conclusion that
because a legislative body passed a motion it must have had the
authority to pass that motion is a circular argument. If a body was
acting "ultra vires" (beyond its powers) then any action it took was
null and void. I for one do not believe that any Grand Lodge is a
credible authority on matters of theology and scriptural legitimacy.

Bob Jones, SLGR (UGLE) etc etc

P.S. English Masons who have heard the explanation of the Second Degree
Tracing Board might recognise that apparently in King Solomon's days PI
did equal 3 if the dimensions of the two Great Pillars are to be taken
literally. :-)

--
Robert S. Jones, I.T. Security Consultant | Vox [phone]
Computing Services, Mile End Campus | Fax [phone]
Queen Mary, University of London, U.K. | GSM [phone]

[Chris Hansen]

Post by Chris H
I agree. That was my view when I was initiated. I am not Christian but I
saw the VSL as symbolic rather than literal. That said it works the
other way as the potential Moslem member we had wanted the Koran and it
was many of the o9ld guard who did not understand this and though they
could only use God's Bible.....

A former co-worker whom I proposed for membership in Goliath is scheduled to
be initiated in February. We are sourcing a Qu'ran (the Grand Tyler's office
at Great Queen Street has one, I believe) for him. Two or our three previous
initiates are non-Christians/non-Jews. The lodge was founded as an all-Jewish
lodge in the 1930's so having our first Muslim brother is very exciting.

I have now memorised the Charge to the Initiate and will be absolutely pleased
as punch to contribute that to his initiation.

--the other Chris H.

[Torence]

On Jan 24, 4:45 pm, Chris Hansen

Post by Chris Hansen
I have now memorised the Charge to the Initiate and will be absolutely pleased
as punch to contribute that to his initiation.

In Illinois, the Charge to the first degree candidate would be a
particularly interesting and poignant selection to learn and present
for this occasion. I wonder how its message compares to the one that
you will be expressing. In it, we advise respect to the Creator and
explain extensively the unerring truth and justice found in the VSL.
Both precepts taken together, by immemorial usage, we find direction
applicable to our relationships, both family and neighbor; but are
also reminded to ever remember our fundamental modus operandi as to
how to preserve at least a modicum of respect for ourselves.
When obligating a candidate who is also of “The Book,” though it
may be in another form, a later or earlier edition, the presence of
both the volume that he is most familiar with and the traditional one
symbolizes the extent of 6000 years of mankind’s reflective and
speculative thought as well as unity and continuity to our
ForeBrothers. If we practice what we espouse, then no true Mason would
find fault with both volumes lying where we Masons like to display
them. I believe this to be the correct usage rather than removing one
of them and substituting another.
If some conflict or neurosis would remain as an obstacle for a
candidate to except both volumes, then by strict observance that
trouble would be a disqualifier for admission. Similarly, if a member
cannot see past some prejudice that would cause him to deny the
candidate his sacred VSL, then this personal boggle fails to meet the
test of reflecting honor on our ancient institution. He should
probably stay home until he gets over such sickness and is well.
But that is only my opinion.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon – Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM-Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois

[Larry The Mason from Holbrook]

Post by Chris H
However many lodges are white middle class Christian and have been for
the last 50+ years and it does not occur to some masons that
non-Christians are members of the craft.

Remember that the demographics and diversity of Lodge members very
closely mirrors that of the surrounding community. Urban and suburban
Lodges might have a more diverse membership than a rural Lodge (YMMV,
of course).

Post by Chris H
[They] have never come across non-Christian Brethren and never had to actually
address the idea in the flesh.

I expereinced this. My SW called me one day to advise (warn) me that
a candidate for whom we were to ballot that evening was black. I
reminded him that skin color has no bearing, that the only members who
know his skin color are his sponsors and investigators, and we already
have non-white members. He was concerned for the candidate, who has
become one of our most active new members and a darned quick study.

Post by Chris H
The all profess to... It is just with some they have never had to
actually address the issue.

Some, unfortunately, appear to have unwritten restrictions. But
instead of rejecting the petition or black-cubing at ballot, which
might bring unwanted scrutiny, they instead discourage the candidate
from petitioning in the first place. One excuse I've heard (and one
from a prospect) is that the petitioner might not be comfortable in a
Lodge where he is the odd man, but this is just bupkis. "Best
interest" excuses only justify discriminaton and damage the reputation
of all Masons. Let the man meet the other members outside Lodge, let
him determine for himself if he can be at ease.

Note that I have heard first-hand from a candidate who got this excuse
from a Prince Hall Mason - the candidate was white.

Fraternally,
Larry W, PM
Holbrook #30 AF&AM
Forest Grove, Oregon

[Torence]

On Jan 9, 9:16 pm, Larry The Mason from Holbrook

Post by Larry The Mason from Holbrook
I expereinced this. My SW called me one day to advise (warn) me that
a candidate for whom we were to ballot that evening was black.

I heard that science has figured out how this can happen to a man.
My wife and I have made miscegenation sort of a hobby of ours these
last twenty-three years.

Post by Larry The Mason from Holbrook
He was concerned for the candidate, who has
become one of our most active new members and a darned quick study.

I encountered some of that “concern for me” myself over the years.
There is a reason why restaurants have menus. Enjoy your Wonder Bread
toast, my Brothers. I like my pumpernickel.

Post by Larry The Mason from Holbrook
Some, unfortunately, appear to have unwritten restrictions.

The de facto laws remain the supreme authority when it comes to how
Local Lodges function. Your Senior Warden identified the condition;
and correct me if I am wrong, you pursued the conversation relying on
the Mallum Prohibitum restriction that race is abhorrent to
FreeMasonry and that only the moral, mental, and physical attributes
of the candidate should be a consideration. I will put it to you,
however, that the Mallum Prohibitum rule did not pass this candidate,
as it could not pass others in previous years. Your Senior Warden
merely needs now to revise his assessment of the de facto condition
which remains the superior authority for your lodge.
Your Lodge has matured beyond evaluating material by surface
considerations, a worthwhile exercise as evidenced by your report that
the Apprentice has progressed proficiently to Master. As the
collective souls of the rank and file membership develop, so does our
Masonic fraternity.

Post by Larry The Mason from Holbrook
But instead of rejecting the petition or black-cubing at ballot, which
might bring unwanted scrutiny, they instead discourage the candidate
from petitioning in the first place.

I am reminded here of the Case of Lodge Forfar and Kincardine,
Dundee Scotland No. 225. On November 1st, 1913, the R.W. Master, W.
Bro. Thompson Blues was suspended for two years, and W. Bros. George
Smith, John Ross and Alexander Lowe, all Past Masters suspended for
one year. The offence was that the October 11th 1913 meeting of that
lodge was called at 10:00 AM instead of the appointed hour of noon to
initiate a candidate. The Proposer, R. W. Past Master Smith, was
reputed to knew nothing of the candidate and took as his
recommendation the opinion of an Entered Apprentice named M’Laglen who
had only been in town for a week or two. The four, after conferring,
agreed to proceed with the initiation of one “Jack A. Johnson.” A year
later, the meeting and the degree action were judged “illegal” by a
select committee of the Grand Lodge.
The Grand Lodge of Scotland at the time rendered a verdict that
included this statement:
“Masonry throughout the world felt disgraced when it was announced
that Jack Johnson has been made a mason in staid, conservative,
respectable old Scotland. It could scarcely be believed. This sense of
shame was not so much because of the man’s color, as from the fact
that his only distinction was that he was the champion brute of the
world. Now Scotland has purged masonry of this shame and disgrace the
members of the Craft, the world over, will breathe a sigh of relief.”
Reading this record, did you suck the air back in a bit? These
Brothers may have long passed from this earthly plane; but would you,
in light of what has become the new de facto conditions, consider them
heroes or devils?
Should Jack Johnson be included on modern lists of famous
FreeMasons?

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon – Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois

[Larry]

Post by Torence
On Jan 9, 9:16 pm, Larry The Mason from Holbrook

Post by Larry The Mason from Holbrook
Some, unfortunately, appear to have unwritten restrictions.

The de facto laws remain the supreme authority

I'm sorry, Brother, but it doesn't. In this case, we are dealing with
human nature and learned opinions. Freemasonry, as an organization,
does not suffer from those frailties and encourages its members to
overcome them.

Post by Torence
Local Lodges function. Your Senior Warden identified the condition;
and correct me if I am wrong, you pursued the conversation relying on
the Mallum Prohibitum restriction that race is abhorrent to
FreeMasonry and that only the moral, mental, and physical attributes
of the candidate should be a consideration.

Well, perhaps in some small part, yes. But I do not hold any prejudices
or bias for or against others (except bad drivers, I suppose). I was
willing to enforce the Masonic law were I made aware of any tainted
vote, to demonstrate that de facto standards do not supersede law.

In the case of those Lodges where discrimination is apparent, I believe
de facto reigns because Masonic law has no jurisdiction. Law (any law)
cannot force a man to change his opinion or prejudice, it can only force
him to suppress it. We, as Masons, strive to overcome our prejudices
and to embrace diversity, but we are not free from them simply because
we are Masons.

Post by Torence
Your Lodge has matured beyond evaluating material by surface
considerations, a worthwhile exercise as evidenced by your report that
the Apprentice has progressed proficiently to Master. As the
collective souls of the rank and file membership develop, so does our
Masonic fraternity.

We are proud of our diversity here in the Northwest.

Post by Torence

Post by Larry The Mason from Holbrook
But instead of rejecting the petition or black-cubing at ballot, which
might bring unwanted scrutiny, they instead discourage the candidate
from petitioning in the first place.

I am reminded here of the Case of Lodge Forfar and Kincardine,
Dundee Scotland No. 225. On November 1st, 1913

Seems rather irrelevant today, since this would not occur in any regular
Lodge.

Post by Torence
Reading this record, did you suck the air back in a bit?

Not particularly. I am slightly ashamed that there would be so obvious
a demonstration of racial discrimination within Masonry, but since we
are a progressive science it only seems natural that we would mature
beyond that.

Post by Torence
These
Brothers may have long passed from this earthly plane; but would you,
in light of what has become the new de facto conditions, consider them
heroes or devils?

Of the two choices, I pick heroes. These Masons were apparently charged
in a Masonic trial for, among other things, violating some restriction
on race or skin color. If that were not something addressed in Law, I
can't see how it could be addressed in trial or decision.

Post by Torence
Should Jack Johnson be included on modern lists of famous
FreeMasons?

I believe not because he is not a regular Mason in any Lodge. I will
argue that he is a Mason, made first in his heart and second at the
altar, having taken obligations that cannot be repudiated or laid aside.

Frats, etc. Time to go initiate a new Brother.

[Richard Watson]

Sorry to be so downbeat on this matter, but I have seen a lot of unMasonic conduct in the last few years. Unfortunately I have found religious bigotry and racism to be more common in the Oregon jurisdiction than our profession of Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity should allow. One petitioner in Eugene has been rejected because he is a Bishop in a liberal Christian Church. Two "right-wing" Christians rejected him without even meeting him. He is waiting for the five-year release of jurisdiction so he can finally petition another Lodge. I am seriously considering demitting from Oreon and affiliating with the State of Washington because of bigotry like this.

Three Prince Hall Lodges meet in our Lodge Building (they are adding many members these days). I have heard disparaging comments (one with a racial slur) from a member of another Oregon Lodge about our lodge working in fellowship with Prince Hall. Nonetheless, members of our "blue" Lodge attend the Prince Hall meetings and have a wonderful time with our Brethren there. In my opinion, they also take Masonry and ritual very seriously.

Richard Watson
Kenton Lodge No. 145
Research Lodge No. 198

-----Original Message-----
From: sof-mail-***@mail.cybermango.org [mailto:sof-mail-***@mail.cybermango.org] On Behalf Of Larry The Mason from Holbrook
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 7:16 PM
To: sof-***@mail.cybermango.org
Subject: Re: [sof] Heroes

Post by Chris H
However many lodges are white middle class Christian and have been for
the last 50+ years and it does not occur to some masons that
non-Christians are members of the craft.

Remember that the demographics and diversity of Lodge members very
closely mirrors that of the surrounding community. Urban and suburban
Lodges might have a more diverse membership than a rural Lodge (YMMV,
of course).

Post by Chris H
[They] have never come across non-Christian Brethren and never had to actually
address the idea in the flesh.

I expereinced this. My SW called me one day to advise (warn) me that
a candidate for whom we were to ballot that evening was black. I
reminded him that skin color has no bearing, that the only members who
know his skin color are his sponsors and investigators, and we already
have non-white members. He was concerned for the candidate, who has
become one of our most active new members and a darned quick study.

Post by Chris H
The all profess to... It is just with some they have never had to
actually address the issue.

Some, unfortunately, appear to have unwritten restrictions. But
instead of rejecting the petition or black-cubing at ballot, which
might bring unwanted scrutiny, they instead discourage the candidate
from petitioning in the first place. One excuse I've heard (and one
from a prospect) is that the petitioner might not be comfortable in a
Lodge where he is the odd man, but this is just bupkis. "Best
interest" excuses only justify discriminaton and damage the reputation
of all Masons. Let the man meet the other members outside Lodge, let
him determine for himself if he can be at ease.

Note that I have heard first-hand from a candidate who got this excuse
from a Prince Hall Mason - the candidate was white.

Fraternally,
Larry W, PM
Holbrook #30 AF&AM
Forest Grove, Oregon

[Torence]

Post by Richard Watson
One petitioner in Eugene has been rejected because he is a Bishop in a liberal Christian Church.
Two "right-wing" Christians rejected him without even meeting him. He is waiting for the five-year release of jurisdiction
so he can finally petition another Lodge.

While you may not admit him, you should then make the motion that
your Lodge waives jurisdiction. He will then need not wait to petition
another Local Lodge. Your Grand Secretary's Office (or Grand Master)
should have no qualms about accepting the decision unless they have
casue for a moral, mental or physical disqualification.
While I have defended the right to objection without stating cause
by a single member for the admision of material into his Lodge as an
immemorial right, that right does nto extend globally beyond the tiled
walls of the singular Lodge.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon - Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 - Crete, Illinois
PM - Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 - Lasning, Illinois

[Richard Watson]

Unfortunately, the same persons have voted against the release of jurisdiction, A release requires unanimous consent which that lodge has failed to give the petitioner on several occasions. Hence the five-year wait.

-----Original Message-----
From: sof-mail-***@mail.cybermango.org [mailto:sof-mail-***@mail.cybermango.org] On Behalf Of Torence
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 7:04 AM
To: sof-***@mail.cybermango.org
Subject: Re: [sof] Heroes

Post by Richard Watson
One petitioner in Eugene has been rejected because he is a Bishop in a liberal Christian Church.
Two "right-wing" Christians rejected him without even meeting him. He
is waiting for the five-year release of jurisdiction so he can finally petition another Lodge.

While you may not admit him, you should then make the motion that your Lodge waives jurisdiction. He will then need not wait to petition another Local Lodge. Your Grand Secretary's Office (or Grand Master) should have no qualms about accepting the decision unless they have casue for a moral, mental or physical disqualification.
While I have defended the right to objection without stating cause by a single member for the admision of material into his Lodge as an immemorial right, that right does nto extend globally beyond the tiled walls of the singular Lodge.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon - Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 - Crete, Illinois PM - Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 - Lasning, Illinois

[Chris H]

In message

Post by Richard Watson
Unfortunately, the same persons have voted against the release of
jurisdiction, A release requires unanimous consent which that lodge has
failed to give the petitioner on several occasions. Hence the five-year
wait.

And these people are still freemasons?

Post by Richard Watson
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: [sof] Heroes

Post by Richard Watson
One petitioner in Eugene has been rejected because he is a Bishop in
a liberal Christian Church.
Two "right-wing" Christians rejected him without even meeting him. He
is waiting for the five-year release of jurisdiction so he can
finally petition another Lodge.

While you may not admit him, you should then make the motion that
your Lodge waives jurisdiction. He will then need not wait to petition
another Local Lodge. Your Grand Secretary's Office (or Grand Master)
should have no qualms about accepting the decision unless they have
casue for a moral, mental or physical disqualification.
While I have defended the right to objection without stating cause
by a single member for the admision of material into his Lodge as an
immemorial right, that right does nto extend globally beyond the tiled
walls of the singular Lodge.
Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon - Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 - Crete, Illinois PM -
Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 - Lasning, Illinois

[Torence]

Unfortunately, the same persons have voted against the release of jurisdiction, A release requires unanimous consent which that lodge has failed to give the petitioner on several occasions. Hence the five-year wait.right, that right does nto extend globally beyond the tiled walls of the singular Lodge.

Hmmm. I was unaware that a waiver of jurisdiction required an
unanimous vote in your jurisdiction. But while a ballot for the
degrees or affiliation is protected as secret, can not your Master
demand a just cause for the stay of waiver? Or is that privileged too?

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon - Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 - Crete, Illinois PM -
Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 - Lasning, Illinois- Hide quoted text -

[Jack Wise]

Post by Torence
While you may not admit him, you should then make the motion that
your Lodge waives jurisdiction.

Here in Texas, that is not an option. A candidate, when rejected, is
rejected for a specific period of time for the entire jurisdiction. (3
negative votes = 1 year; 2 negative votes - 2 years; 3 or more negative
votes = 3 years.)

A waiver of jurisdiction does not negate the period of time for which a
candidate is rejected. A waiver would allow the petitioner to petition
a different lodge at the expiration of the designated period of rejection.
--
Jack Wise

PM, Jacques DeMolay Lodge No. 1390, AF & AM, Houston, TX
( www.jd1390.org/jdmlodge.htm )

Member: Oak Wood Lodge No. 1444, AF & AM, The Woodlands, TX


TEXAS red wine: renowned for its smoky-mesquite-bbq & jalapeno
overtones, the perfect foil for a meal of tacos and refried beans...

[Chris H]

In message

Post by Richard Watson
Sorry to be so downbeat on this matter, but I have seen a lot of
unMasonic conduct in the last few years. Unfortunately I have found
religious bigotry and racism to be more common in the Oregon
jurisdiction than our profession of Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity
should allow. One petitioner in Eugene has been rejected because he is
a Bishop in a liberal Christian Church.

What has that got to do with it? Surely you just ask "Do you believe in
a supreme being?" He does not have to be Christian?

Post by Richard Watson
Two "right-wing" Christians rejected him without even meeting him.

I assume someone has a word with them about their non-Masonic behaviour?

What would they do if the applicant was non-Christian Ie asked for a
different VSL for his initiation?

Post by Richard Watson
He is waiting for the five-year release of jurisdiction so he can
finally petition another Lodge. I am seriously considering demitting
from Oreon and affiliating with the State of Washington because of
bigotry like this.

I can understand that.

Post by Richard Watson
Three Prince Hall Lodges meet in our Lodge Building (they are adding
many members these days). I have heard disparaging comments (one with a
racial slur) from a member of another Oregon Lodge about our lodge
working in fellowship with Prince Hall.

That is appalling! Perhaps you should have a few presentations in the
Lodge on Brotherly love?

[Larry]

Post by Richard Watson
Two "right-wing"
Christians rejected him without even meeting him.

I don't understand how this was found out. Not that I would ever
support their decision, but isn't a ballot secret?

It is sad to hear that this occurred. The event was beyond my cable
tow; thank you for mentioning it.

Post by Richard Watson
I am seriously considering demitting from Oregon and
affiliating with the State of Washington because of bigotry like
this.

Is there so much bigotry in all of Oregon that would prompt you to this
action? Or is it a select number of Lodges and a now past line of
officers and Grand officers?

Post by Richard Watson
Nonetheless, members of our
"blue" Lodge attend the Prince Hall meetings and have a wonderful
time with our Brethren there.

Would there be a reason not to petition one of the Prince Hall Lodges
for membership?

[s***@gmail.com]

Of course, this isn't Blue Lodge Freemasonry, but it's interesting to
note that on the altar in the House of the Temple, Supreme Council,
33rd Degree, here in Washington, D.C., there are several VSLs: The
Bible; a Torah; a Koran; and a Bhagavad Gita. These are there all the
time.

SteveB
Maryland

[Chris H]

In message
<56488bef-85b1-4842-a1cd-***@q30g2000prq.googlegroups.com>,
Larry The Mason from Holbrook <***@gmail.com>
writes

Post by Larry The Mason from Holbrook

Post by Chris H
[They] have never come across non-Christian Brethren and never had to actually
address the idea in the flesh.

I expereinced this. My SW called me one day to advise (warn) me that
a candidate for whom we were to ballot that evening was black.

On colour ALL craft masons are blue :-)

[Larry The Mason from Holbrook]

Post by Chris H
In message
On colour ALL craft masons are blue :-)

It's sad that some Masons might agree with you and then concern
himself about the shade of blue.

Frats,
Larry W, PM

[Doug Freyburger]

Decade to decade more and more of the planet is under democracy.

  Not true, my learned Worshipful Brother Freyburger, decade to
decade, more men in this world have grown up Communist; and Masonry is
unlikely to alter that trend any time soon.

My perspective a matter of number of nations becoming
republics and the number of dictatorships becoming
less restrictive - map oriented. Former colonies now
republics, nations gradually getting better electoral
processes, an empire splintering into republics, the
largest communist nation moving more towards freedom.

Your perspective a matter of which nations have what
populations - individual oriented.

Interesting how we both have our points based on our
own perspectives. Mine is rather like the work on world
hunger - The percentage has been decreasing for
decades even though the number hungry grows. As long
as the regions in republics and/or not hungry (different
maps, similar historical patterns) grow eventually the
number under tyranny or hunger will shrink. I hope and
think.

Is there a way to foster the growth of democracy and religious freedom and tolerance in
the developing world without making it political?

   Can Masonry do the beauty pageant thing and be a beacon for “world
peace?” The notion is not so far fetched and several times in our
history here in Illinois Grand Orators have called for just that
purpose for FreeMasonry. Personally, I do not see the concept as
political; but rather a good influence ...

I'm not convinced that talking about world peace is an activity
that actually increases world peace. I was thinking in terms
of building Masonic centers and sponsoring lodges with funding
in the nations of the developing world. If Masonry takes care of
our own, then my thoughts were in terms of expanding Masonic
presence in developing nations by giving the facilities and
opportunity to those who would chose to petition.

  ... perhaps FreeMasonry should
promote Freedom to Travel as a unique Twenty-first Century take on the
theme.

"... travel in foreign countries ..."

Masonry, therefore, should also stand for Open Borders ...

This suggests an errosion of patriotism. If we view the word
patriotism as a positive and the word nationalism as a negative
side of the same coin (not standard usage so I'm likely to be
misunderstood here) - Those with nationalist pride will object
and those with patriotic pride will be eroded.

What's the next philosophical advancement in civilization?  How to bring the benefits
of previous advancements to the rest of the world?  These are the external and internal
questions for our own culture to ponder and to figure out how to act upon.

  Twenty-first Century Masons, act like heroes.

I've long taken the primary meaning for hero to be a person
who acts in courage, and the secondary meaning for hero
to be a person worthy of emulation. I just looked up hero
in www.dictionary.com and my secondary meaning does
not appear. Sigh, looks like I dreampt up that secondary
meaning along the way somewhere ...

I think we are enjoined as Masons to live an exemplary life
and as such we should fit what I wanted as a secondary
definition of the word. I don't think that a philosophical
advancement. Philosophers have long stressed the value
of personal excellence. It's an ancient philosophical
advancement in civilization not a new one.

[Torence]

My perspective a matter of number of nations becoming republics and the number of
dictatorships becoming less restrictive….Your perspective a matter of which nations
have what populations - individual oriented.

Though for Masons, we must all understand that any individual
rights inherent in fraternal affiliation is vested in his Local Lodge,
not his isolated membership.

I'm not convinced that talking about world peace is an activity that actually increases
world peace.

Even so…As Masons, we should be left free to converse upon the
ideal in any setting and not allow ourselves to be too contained in
thought or action in the defense of the notion.

I was thinking in terms of building Masonic centers and sponsoring
lodges with funding in the nations of the developing world.

A worthy expression; but, I could not agree with any scheme that
would involve taxing Brothers in a jurisdiction to erect buildings
elsewhere that they would be unlikely to enjoy themselves. Such an
enterprise would have to be individually sponsored and not involve the
use of any Grand Lodge’s General Fund or other endowment.

Open Borders ...
This suggests an errosion of patriotism.

Not from my viewpoint. Only mountains, rivers, oceans etc. exist
in this world. They last forever because they are Divinely inspired.
The notion of country is a human and subjective ideal. As Masons, we
should be able to talk of our individual pride of place, and even show
it off to those who were not so fortunate to be invested with the same
Heavenly Bounty by the accident of birth, without being branded as
unpatriotic or overly patriotic, generous or disharmonious. Respect
for the individual Mason’s perspective should be indicative of the
admiration that we are directed to give to one another; and we should
not be quick to offend or be offended by any temporal discussion.

Philosophers have long stressed the value of personal excellence. It's an ancient
philosophical advancement in civilization not a new one.

Is twenty-first century Masonry then led by men who exhibit
excellence? The answer is in the example of the two-wheeled bicycle.
Fortunately for us, what has not been predetermined by any rule is who
on the machine will do the peddling, and who will do the steering. In
that decision we all have a say.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon – Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois

[Doug Freyburger]

My perspective a matter of number of nations becoming republics and the number of
dictatorships becoming less restrictive….Your perspective a matter of which nations
have what populations - individual oriented.

That bit about nations and historical trends ...

   Though for Masons, we must all understand that any individual
rights inherent in fraternal affiliation is vested in his Local Lodge,
not his isolated membership.

Bro Torrence moved that analogy into Masonry ...

My understanding is the atom of Masonry is the brother.
A lodge is a number of Masons meeting with a charter or
dispensation, a VSL, square and compasses plus
assorted organizational stuff like officers and dues and
whatever. A grand lodge is a number lodges meeting
under a charter, a VSL, square and compasses plus
assorted organizational stuff like grand officers and
per capita and whatever. All three levels are tied
together in the obligations to give all three levels mutual
responsibilities, but it is his isolated membership that is
the cornerstone upon which the rest of the superstructure
is erected.

I was thinking in terms of building Masonic centers and sponsoring
lodges with funding in the nations of the developing world.

   A worthy expression; but, I could not agree with any scheme that
would involve taxing Brothers in a jurisdiction to erect buildings
elsewhere that they would be unlikely to enjoy themselves. Such an
enterprise would have to be individually sponsored and not involve the
use of any Grand Lodge’s General Fund or other endowment.

Agreed. Like some many jurisdiction sponsor homes or
other charitable activities not like per capita. In fact I think
this a task that could beneficially be taken on by the Masonic
Services Association. I know there's an MSA that spans the
US and Canada but I have no idea if other geographies have
such jurisdiction spanning groups that serve as information
exchanges organizing everything from finding members to
do a Masonic funeral for a travelling brother to pooling
contributions for disaster relief.

If there's a way to encourage the growth of republics and
freedom within republics without becoming political, I feel
this is the way to go about it. Sponsor Masonry, supporting
our own.

Philosophers have long stressed the value of personal excellence.  It's an ancient
philosophical advancement in civilization not a new one.

   Is twenty-first century Masonry then led by men who exhibit
excellence?

Personal excellence has long been one of the key notes of
Masonry - "Masonry makes good men better". But there are
other more transient notes to the Masonic song. Personal
excellence is the chorus/refrain. The stanzas in between
can vary era to era.

Across the centuries there have been stanzas like mutual
benefit society, push for republics, sponsor public education.
Each stanza has been joined with a chorus of personal
excellence.

[Torence]

All three levels are tied together in the obligations to give all three levels mutual
responsibilities, but it is his isolated membership that is the cornerstone upon which the
rest of the superstructure is erected.

I will apologize in advance for being so singular; but I am
unanimous in my opinion.
Neither the Grand Lodge nor the Individual Member, nor Masonry,
could exist as FreeMasons without there be the Local Lodge. Truth
being as stubborn as it can be, the Local Lodge has always been, shall
always be; and, thankfully, is… the de facto Supreme Authority in
Ancient Craft Freemasonry. No Mason is equipped to alter that
circumstance.
There never was a moment when Masons were walking about anywhere in
the world waiting for a Grand Lodge to come into being and create a
Local Lodge for them. We do not have Masons born into this world. They
are made by the Local Lodges and no individual can remain a Mason
without his being recognized as such by his Local Lodge.
Oh sure, in our history some rather less than focused thinking M.W.
or R.W. this or thats here and there have made it out as if this
condition isn’t true. In my own jurisdiction, I have found that there
never was an “Interregnum,” a time between Grand Lodges when Masonry
in Illinois did not exist. Some persist in repeating that myth.
The New Year is upon us, why not make it your resolution, and we
Masons love to resolve this or that, to give the Local Lodge the
rightful place in your head as its probably already holds in your
heart?

I was thinking in terms of building Masonic centers and sponsoring
lodges with funding in the nations of the developing world.

In fact I think this a task that could beneficially be taken on by the Masonic
Services Association.

Here there is a serious risk of the MSA or some other organization
similar to it behaving as if it were a Grand Lodge. That is the
trouble with checkbook charity; and the profane practice this form of
beneficence all the time. It is relatively easy to send a bank draft
and then “Let someone else do it.” As honorable as we all like to
think ourselves and our fellows to be, whenever money is pooled, by
its very nature, it will becomes the subject of unintended schemes and
diversions often times by the most well meaning persons.
True Charity, however, is a Masonic Art form; and the Local Lodge
is particularly well suited to foster it. Its best expression retains
the personal touch. In our own bailiwicks, we would not dispense cash
for this need or that without there being a visible face to it in the
form of a representative Brother or group of them. All these funds,
whether organized by Grand Lodges, Rites, or Service Organizations.
IMHO, should be returned to the Local Lodges who sacrificed and gave
for it… to be used in their own Charity Accounts. Let us not start any
new ones.

Each stanza has been joined with a chorus of personal excellence.

Should old acquaintance be forgot and never brought to mind…
Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon – Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois

[Dave Vick]

In article

Post by Torence
We do not have Masons born into this world. They
are made by the Local Lodges and no individual can remain a Mason
without his being recognized as such by his Local Lodge.

I couldn't disagree more. Masons are made in their hearts by the GAOTU.

[Jim Bennie]

Post by Dave Vick
Masons are made in their hearts by the GAOTU.

Was it in a one-day class?

Jim, Vancouver

[Larry The Mason from Holbrook]

Post by Jim Bennie

 Masons are made in their hearts by the GAOTU.

Was it in a one-day class?
Jim, Vancouver

There's a factory under the Denver Airport.

Larry, Oregon

[Dave Vick]

Post by Jim Bennie

Post by Dave Vick
Masons are made in their hearts by the GAOTU.

Was it in a one-day class?

Define "day"...

[Chris H]

In message

Post by Torence
We do not have Masons born into this world. They
are made by the Local Lodges and no individual can remain a Mason
without his being recognized as such by his Local Lodge.

That is not correct. You can be an unattached mason.

[David Simpson]

[Default] On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 13:34:39 CST, Chris H

Post by Chris H
In message

Post by Torence
We do not have Masons born into this world. They
are made by the Local Lodges and no individual can remain a Mason
without his being recognized as such by his Local Lodge.

That is not correct. You can be an unattached mason.

Not so in much of America, I believe,
--
Regards
David Simpson
(Unattached MM, Victoria, Australia)
So she went into the garden to cut a cabbage leaf to make an
apple pie; and at the same time a great she-bear, coming up the
street pops its head into the shop. "What! no soap?" So he died,
and she very imprudently married the barber; and there were
present the Picninnies, and the Grand Panjandrum himself, with
the little round button at top, and they all fell to playing the
game of catch as catch can, till the gunpowder ran out at the
heels of their boots. |-- Samuel Foote

[BES]

Post by David Simpson

Torence writes

We do not have Masons born into this world. They are made
by the Local Lodges and no individual can remain a Mason
without his being recognized as such by his Local Lodge.

That is not correct. You can be an unattached mason.

Not so in much of America, I believe,

Ok, enough - I want an explanation of "unattached Mason" which is not a term
officially used in this jurisdiction

I am assuming that, elsewhere, an "unattached Mason" is an "IPR" Mason who, for
whatever reason, is no longer a member of any local Lodge.

In Alberta, a Mason who has taken a "clear" Demit (a demit with no dues in
arrears) from his Lodge may attend a Lodge 3 times in a year without
re-affiliating with that Lodge and thus, because he has no obligation to pay
dues to any Lodge (or the Grand Lodge) until he has affiliated with some Lodge,
would be considered an "unattached Mason."

[David Simpson]

Post by BES

Post by David Simpson

Torence writes

We do not have Masons born into this world. They are made
by the Local Lodges and no individual can remain a Mason
without his being recognized as such by his Local Lodge.

That is not correct. You can be an unattached mason.

Not so in much of America, I believe,

Ok, enough - I want an explanation of "unattached Mason" which is not a term
officially used in this jurisdiction
I am assuming that, elsewhere, an "unattached Mason" is an "IPR" Mason who, for
whatever reason, is no longer a member of any local Lodge.
In Alberta, a Mason who has taken a "clear" Demit (a demit with no dues in
arrears) from his Lodge may attend a Lodge 3 times in a year without
re-affiliating with that Lodge and thus, because he has no obligation to pay
dues to any Lodge (or the Grand Lodge) until he has affiliated with some Lodge,
would be considered an "unattached Mason."

Exactly correct. In my jurisdiction it is only once per year that an
unattached mason may visit.

[Torence]

I learned it with the term "Mason at large" or "Mason on an open demit". A Mason in
that state is supposed to visit for the express purpose of finding a lodge to affiliate with.

Until 1978, in Illinois, we had an old Code #300 that stated "It is
the duty of every Mason to belong to some Lodge." The motivation for
removing it was contained in additional legislation that shifted the
focus for new Masons away from their Local Lodge and the acceptance of
checkbook memberships.
I hold that we should reinstate this old Code #300.

But what if he's in a geography with no lodges within his cable tow? He stays at large.

Given the smallness of this world in the twenty-first century and
the availability in most jurisdictions for dual or plural memberships,
where is travel to a Masonic Lodge in America any sort of obstacle? If
our Fore Brothers could travel for a day or two by horse and buggy in
order to attend, then what does such a notion say about the caliber of
FreeMason today?

To my knowledge a Mason at large can get that way by demitting before having
another lodge to affiliate with, by having his lodge get its charter pulled (oops,
better volunteer for that opening in the line to serve your lodge!) or being made a
"Mason at sight" by a GM in a jurisdiction that allows that. There are probably other
ways.

Yes, recent Grand Masters here in Illinois have invented a new way.
I find my current membership to be in a class all by myself, a sort of
Quasi-Mason, an anomaly in Illinois history. Believe me, I have
searched the record. I was sentenced to one year of Definite
Suspension, among other restrictions, following my conviction in 2004
for violating Code 484 for” raising vexatious questions” and
“challenging the authority of the Grand Master.” We have four grades
of punishment in Illinois, reprimand, definite suspension, indefinite
suspension and expulsion. The rules of a definite suspension are
plain, once the term has expired and there are no new complaints, the
Brother is to be restored to membership in his Lodge.
Having completed the terms of my punishment, a subsequent Grand
Master imposed additional restrictions at the moment I should have
been restored. No action should have been needed either by the Lodge
or the Grand Lodge. One condition was to make me a “Mason At Large,” a
quality which implies a certain rather flattering infamy. Fortunately,
I had a choice of lodges that would unanimously accept me. While I
have a written decision that I am a Past Master of the Lodge that
Raised Me, I remain, through no fault of my own making, suspended
there, but not elsewhere. This is funny, because I have no trouble
enjoying good fellowship with the Brothers of the Lodge that Raised
Me, doing degrees and other ceremonial work together. Perhaps some
future Grand Master here in Illinois will correct the condition.
The rule of law in this part of the world is that the one who
asserts should prove their position not he that denies the condition.
Because of the brotherhood that exists and existed even while
suspended, I am a de facto member of the Lodge that Raised Me despite
what the Grand Lodge record states. So, until some future Grand Line
decides it worthwhile to follow their own rules and restore me there,
I figure that as the victim I need not protest too much.

Were those first members Masons? If Bro Torrance's point gets taken too literally no.

Self creation was a fault of the Premier Grand Lodge and other
subsequent Quasi-Masonic Grand Lodge organizations; and is usually a
basis for rejecting their regularity. The Masonic Lodges that existed
before the Premier Grand Lodge’s 1717 formation evolved from the
Operative kind. So, while physical stone Masons, by virtue of their
skill as Craftsmen, did not need any sort of ceremonial to make them
Masons and could form Lodges simply by banding together in sufficient
numbers, we other types of men need a Lodge with a pedigree that goes
back to the Operative sort to make us.

Up to this point in my discussion my stance was that without Masons a new lodge can't be founded.

Not to be picky; but they are formed by old Masons.

…therefore the individual Mason is the starting point.

Making Individual Masons is an end.

I was thinking in terms of what's built of what not what existed first.

A pile of loose stone does not make a monument.

Taking a viewpoint of a lodge, serving as an officer, I think there needs to be more focus on the individual Mason.

I would take the position that the Grand Lodge is the weakest part
of FreeMasonry, not the Entered Apprentice. Our recent change here in
Illinois to admit EAs back into our business meetings goes to that
point. But you cannot have new Entered Apprentices without there being
an active and productive Local Lodge. Therefore, the focus should be
to diminish distractions and support them in their laudable
operations.

By the way this thread is getting awfully long and does not seem to
have much to do with heroes anymore. Shouldn't someone start a new
thread?

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon – Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 – Crete, Illinois
PM – Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 – Lansing, Illinois

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Chris H

Post by Torence
We do not have Masons born into this world. They
are made by the Local Lodges and no individual can remain a Mason
without his being recognized as such by his Local Lodge.

That is not correct. You can be an unattached mason.

I learned it with the term "Mason at large" or "Mason on
an open demit". A Mason in that state is supposed to
visit for the express purpose of finding a lodge to
affiliate with. But what if he's in a geography with no
lodges within his cable tow? He stays at large.

To my knowledge a Mason at large can get that way
by demitting before having another lodge to affliate
with, by having his lodge get its charter pulled (oops,
better volunteer for that opening in the line to serve
your lodge!) or being made a "Mason at sight" by a
GM in a jurisdiction that allows that. There are
probably other ways.

I think Bro Torrance's point is that without a lodge
there's no way to become a Mason in the first place.
Chicken and egg - At some point men had to come
together the found a lodge just like at some point
lodges had to come together to found a grand lodge.
Were those first members Masons? If Bro
Torrance's point gets taken too literally no.

Up to this point in my discussion my stance was
that without Masons a new lodge can't be founded
therefore the individual Mason is the starting point.
I was thinking in terms of what's built of what not
what existed first. Now thinking of that chicken and
egg issue of how the first lodge must have been
formed I'm more strongly of my starting opinion.

Taking a viewpoint of a grand lodge I'll go with Bro
Torrance's stance. GLs answer to their lodges as
well as leading their lodges. Bro Torrance stresses
the answer-to part more than I do but that's a matter
of perspective not a core difference. Taking a
viewpoint of a lodge, serving as an officer, I think
there needs to be more focus on the individual
Mason. No matter my opinion of GL anywhere from
cowtow to battle, it's a smaller matter than figuring
out how to get one more brother as a regular attender
at my own lodge to me in my station as a lodge
officer.

[BES]

Post by Doug Freyburger
I learned it with the term "Mason at large" or "Mason on
an open demit". A Mason in that state is supposed to
visit for the express purpose of finding a lodge to
affiliate with. But what if he's in a geography with no
lodges within his cable tow? He stays at large.
To my knowledge a Mason at large can get that way
by demitting before having another lodge to affliate
with, by having his lodge get its charter pulled (oops,
better volunteer for that opening in the line to serve
your lodge!) or being made a "Mason at sight" by a
GM in a jurisdiction that allows that. There are
probably other ways.
I think Bro Torrance's point is that without a lodge
there's no way to become a Mason in the first place.
Chicken and egg - At some point men had to come
together the found a lodge just like at some point
lodges had to come together to found a grand lodge.
Were those first members Masons? If Bro
Torrance's point gets taken too literally no.
Up to this point in my discussion my stance was
that without Masons a new lodge can't be founded
therefore the individual Mason is the starting point.
I was thinking in terms of what's built of what not
what existed first. Now thinking of that chicken and
egg issue of how the first lodge must have been
formed I'm more strongly of my starting opinion.
Taking a viewpoint of a grand lodge I'll go with Bro
Torrance's stance. GLs answer to their lodges as
well as leading their lodges. Bro Torrance stresses
the answer-to part more than I do but that's a matter
of perspective not a core difference. Taking a
viewpoint of a lodge, serving as an officer, I think
there needs to be more focus on the individual
Mason. No matter my opinion of GL anywhere from
cowtow to battle, it's a smaller matter than figuring
out how to get one more brother as a regular attender
at my own lodge to me in my station as a lodge
officer.

Ohhhhh, Doug - now you've gone and made me 'ead 'urt !!!!

[Offramp]

  The story goes that Napoleon Bonaparte was made a Mason in Arme
Philadelphe Lodge while at Malta in 1798.

Á propos of that, I recently read in one of the longer degrees of the
Rite of Memphis-Misraim the following footnote:
"The Rite of Memphis in Egypt says that Kleiber and Napoléon received
investiture with a ring at the hand of an Egyptian sage at the Great
Pyramid."