Discussion:
12 bell rings
(too old to reply)
Jeffry Petersen, SS
2009-04-29 16:45:58 UTC
Permalink
Would somebody please explain the significance of
the 12 rings of the bell?

Respectfully, JO :o)

Jeffry
Mudge
2009-04-29 23:08:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeffry Petersen, SS
Would somebody please explain the significance of
the 12 rings of the bell?
Respectfully, JO :o)
It's midnight, innit
--
BES (in Calgary)
Save our precious CO2 - plant many trees
Chris H
2009-04-30 17:56:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mudge
Post by Jeffry Petersen, SS
Would somebody please explain the significance of
the 12 rings of the bell?
Respectfully, JO :o)
It's midnight, innit
Mid day surely? ... the sun with respect to Freemasonary will always be
at it's meridian.
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Cal Christie
2009-05-01 00:41:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris H
Post by Mudge
Post by Jeffry Petersen, SS
Would somebody please explain the significance of
the 12 rings of the bell?
It's midnight, innit
Mid day surely? ... the sun with respect to Freemasonary will always be
at it's meridian.
Chris Hills Staffs England /listinfo/sof-mail
My opinion - -
Midnight = Low twelve - signifying afflicting intelligence.
Noon = High Twelve - calling from L. to R.
Cal Christie - Wyndham 688 GRC
Stuart H.
2009-05-01 00:43:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris H
Post by Mudge
Post by Jeffry Petersen, SS
Would somebody please explain the significance of
the 12 rings of the bell?
Respectfully, JO :o)
It's midnight, innit
Mid day surely? ... the sun with respect to Freemasonary will always be
at it's meridian.
"High Twelve" is noon, "Low Twelve" is midnight, according to what I was
taught. Symbolic perhaps of the darkness of death?

Stuart H.
Baseline Lodge #198 GRA
Alberta, Canada
Mudge
2009-05-02 01:53:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stuart H.
Mudge writes
Post by Mudge
Post by Jeffry Petersen, SS
Would somebody please explain the significance of
the 12 rings of the bell?
Respectfully, JO :o)
It's midnight, innit
Mid day surely? ... the sun with respect to Freemasonary will always be
at it's meridian.
"High Twelve" is noon, "Low Twelve" is midnight, according to what I
was taught. Symbolic perhaps of the darkness of death?
Which probably explains why the bells are heard at that point in the ceremony

BES (in Calgary)
Jeffry Petersen
2009-04-30 17:57:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mudge
Post by Jeffry Petersen, SS
Would somebody please explain the significance of
the 12 rings of the bell?
Respectfully, JO :o)
It's midnight, innit
--
BES (in Calgary)
Save our precious CO2 - plant many trees
yes it is .. :o)

Brother Jeffry
Stuart H.
2009-04-29 23:09:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeffry Petersen, SS
Would somebody please explain the significance of
the 12 rings of the bell?
Respectfully, JO :o)
Jeffry
AFAIK, "Low Twelve"

Stuart H.
PM Baseline #198 GRA
Alberta, Canada
Jeffry Petersen
2009-04-30 14:57:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stuart H.
Post by Jeffry Petersen, SS
Would somebody please explain the significance of
the 12 rings of the bell?
Respectfully, JO :o)
Jeffry
AFAIK, "Low Twelve"
Stuart H.
PM Baseline #198 GRA
Alberta, Canada
Of course... why didnt that registar with me?
I understand now.. maybe.. its not so much the ringing
of the bell... as much as the floor work that goes along
with it.. the steps.. now I am wondering why the steps
.. the back and forth part that has me wondering what the
significance is of the .. stepping ?
That part is like.. suspended in time... to me.. like.. the bell
rings.. however.. we are stepping. Are we representing
the clanger of the bell with each step? Masonry has
so many hidden meanings to rituals that i keep finding out
about.. and I am just curious as to this one at this time.

I also noticed in our working tool kit, the 24 inch gauge...
folds in three parts.. and made of wood..
is it just our gauge or do all the gauges have three distinct
stainings? ours had on one third.. very dark stain.. the center section not
so dark, and the last of the three sections
is very lightly stained with wood stain. I sorta figured in
my own reasoning.. that either this is just bad workmanship.. lol... or.. it
represents moving from dark
to light. Discussions?

fraternally, Jeff
Stuart H.
2009-04-30 17:58:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeffry Petersen
Post by Stuart H.
Post by Jeffry Petersen, SS
Would somebody please explain the significance of
the 12 rings of the bell?
Respectfully, JO :o)
Jeffry
AFAIK, "Low Twelve"
Stuart H.
PM Baseline #198 GRA
Alberta, Canada
Of course... why didnt that registar with me?
I understand now.. maybe.. its not so much the ringing
of the bell... as much as the floor work that goes along
with it.. the steps.. now I am wondering why the steps
.. the back and forth part that has me wondering what the
significance is of the .. stepping ?
That part is like.. suspended in time... to me.. like.. the bell
rings.. however.. we are stepping. Are we representing
the clanger of the bell with each step? Masonry has
so many hidden meanings to rituals that i keep finding out
about.. and I am just curious as to this one at this time.
I also noticed in our working tool kit, the 24 inch gauge...
folds in three parts.. and made of wood..
is it just our gauge or do all the gauges have three distinct
stainings? ours had on one third.. very dark stain.. the center section not
so dark, and the last of the three sections
is very lightly stained with wood stain. I sorta figured in
my own reasoning.. that either this is just bad workmanship.. lol... or.. it
represents moving from dark
to light. Discussions?
fraternally, Jeff
In our jurisdiction, in the ritual (one of two approved but very
different from each other) there is NO movement during the ringing of
the bell. All is silent and still.

Stuart H. (The Bell Ringer)
PM Baseline Lodge #198 GRA
Alberta, Canada
Jim Bennie
2009-05-01 21:20:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeffry Petersen
I understand now.. maybe.. its not so much the ringing
of the bell... as much as the floor work that goes along
with it.. the steps.. now I am wondering why the steps
.. the back and forth part that has me wondering what the
significance is of the .. stepping ?
It may be something particular to the ritual in Florida. I don't know of any
Lodge where anyone's moving at this part of the ceremony.
Post by Jeffry Petersen
I also noticed in our working tool kit, the 24 inch gauge...
folds in three parts.. and made of wood..
is it just our gauge or do all the gauges have three distinct
stainings?
My guess would be it's decorative. One of my lodges has a metal one in one
piece. Another has a wooden one in three. It's only one colour.

Jim Bennie, Nos. 12, 22 & 44, Vancouver
John W..
2009-05-02 17:33:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Bennie
Post by Jeffry Petersen
I understand now.. maybe.. its not so much the ringing
of the bell... as much as the floor work that goes along
with it.. the steps.. now I am wondering why the steps
.. the back and forth part that has me wondering what the
significance is of the .. stepping ?
It may be something particular to the ritual in Florida. I don't know of any
Lodge where anyone's moving at this part of the ceremony.
Post by Jeffry Petersen
I also noticed in our working tool kit, the 24 inch gauge...
folds in three parts.. and made of wood..
is it just our gauge or do all the gauges have three distinct
stainings?
My guess would be it's decorative. One of my lodges has a metal one in one
piece. Another has a wooden one in three. It's only one colour.
Jim Bennie, Nos. 12, 22 & 44, Vancouver
In the UK all the Lodges I have attended use a folding 24 inch gauges,
these:-

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/24_inch_gage.htm

John Neyland Lodge 990 UGLE
Bill M
2009-05-03 14:10:01 UTC
Permalink
In the UK all the Lodges I have attended use a folding 24 inch gauge,
these:-
http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/24_inch_gage.htm
John Neyland Lodge 990 UGLE
The gauge used in my Mother Lodge folds in three parts because three's
the number of of parts the day's to be divided into according to our
ritual. Some have the four-part version shown on the link above because
four's the number of parts the day's to be divided into according to
their ritual. I have been in Lodges where the folds don't reflect the
parts of the day referred to in the lecture, and have seen a couple of
single-piece 24 inch gauges used.

Best,
Bill M, Aberdeen, Scotland
PM Brimmond 1535, RWM Aurora Borealis 1809
.... and a shedload of other stuff too.
Torence
2009-05-04 13:27:07 UTC
Permalink
Our Lodge uses a single piece 24 Inch guage.
As the Lodge Instructor, I find it an effective teaching aid for
ritual as a quick rap across the knuckles gets the i's dotted and t's
crossed.


Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon - Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 - Crete, Illinois
PM - Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 - Lansing, Illinois
David Simpson
2009-05-04 12:55:02 UTC
Permalink
[Default] On Mon, 4 May 2009 07:27:07 CST, Torence
Post by Torence
Our Lodge uses a single piece 24 Inch guage.
As the Lodge Instructor, I find it an effective teaching aid for
ritual as a quick rap across the knuckles gets the i's dotted and t's
crossed.
Corporal punishment is illegal. ;-)}}}
--
Regards
David Simpson
(Unattached MM, Victoria, Australia)
Is that really YOU that is reading this?
Mudge
2009-05-04 18:39:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Torence
Our Lodge uses a single piece 24 Inch guage.
As the Lodge Instructor, I find it an effective teaching aid for
ritual as a quick rap across the knuckles gets the i's dotted and t's
crossed.
As it isn't supposed to be written - why bother with dotted i's or crossed t's

But our 24" gauge is folded to fit in a case - but it looks like a
regular carpenter's measure (I've not seen a real stone mason's gauge)
--
BES (in Calgary)
Save our precious CO2 - plant many trees
Jim Bennie
2009-05-05 10:17:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mudge
Post by Torence
Our Lodge uses a single piece 24 Inch guage.
As the Lodge Instructor, I find it an effective teaching aid for
ritual as a quick rap across the knuckles gets the i's dotted and t's
crossed.
As it isn't supposed to be written - why bother with dotted i's or crossed t's
Where does it say the ritual isn't supposed to be written?

The secrets aren't supposed to be written. The secrets are clearly defined
(in certain versions of the ceremonies). They're not defined as the entire
ritual.

Jim, No. 44, Vancouver
Mudge
2009-05-06 13:15:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Bennie
Post by Mudge
Post by Torence
Our Lodge uses a single piece 24 Inch guage.
As the Lodge Instructor, I find it an effective teaching aid for
ritual as a quick rap across the knuckles gets the i's dotted and t's
crossed.
As it isn't supposed to be written - why bother with dotted i's or crossed t's
Where does it say the ritual isn't supposed to be written?
The secrets aren't supposed to be written. The secrets are clearly defined
(in certain versions of the ceremonies). They're not defined as the entire
ritual.
Me hands Bro. Jim, the "Golden Anorak" award for pedantry
--
BES (in Calgary)
Save our precious CO2 - plant many trees
David Foster
2009-05-06 13:17:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Bennie
Post by Mudge
Post by Torence
Our Lodge uses a single piece 24 Inch guage.
As the Lodge Instructor, I find it an effective teaching aid for
ritual as a quick rap across the knuckles gets the i's dotted and t's
crossed.
As it isn't supposed to be written - why bother with dotted i's or crossed t's
Where does it say the ritual isn't supposed to be written?
The secrets aren't supposed to be written. The secrets are clearly defined
(in certain versions of the ceremonies). They're not defined as the entire
ritual.
Jim, No. 44, Vancouver
Not so everywhere, Brother Jim. In Texas, the
ritual is not to be written. That includes the
opening and closing of the lodge, as well as the
degree ceremonies.
David Foster
Jim Bennie
2009-05-17 16:02:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Bennie
Where does it say the ritual isn't supposed to be written?
In Texas, the ritual is not to be written.
Which is exactly what Mudge said. And my question still stands: Where does
it say that?

Jim, Vancouver
David Foster
2009-05-18 23:12:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Bennie
Post by Jim Bennie
Where does it say the ritual isn't supposed to be written?
In Texas, the ritual is not to be written.
Which is exactly what Mudge said. And my question still stands: Where does
it say that?
Jim, Vancouver
The answer to that question is the EA degree. A
large portion of the degree explains and
illustrates, not just in lecture form, but also in
dramatic emphasis, what can and cannot be written
(with heavy emphasis on the 'cannot'). At least
in Texas. Every man who has taken this degree in
Texas has fond memories of what happened to him
and how he reacted. And how the brethren reacted
to how he reacted.
David Foster
WM, Colfax Lodge #904
Grand Lodge of Texas

Larry W
2009-05-17 19:18:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Bennie
Where does it say the ritual isn't supposed to be written?
According to my EA obligation, I promise not to write down secrets so
that they are not unlawfully revealed.

So I promise not to write them down, but the promise stipulates only
under unlawful conditions. Under lawful conditions, therefore, it must
be OK to write everything down. Oregon has a ciphered ritual and the GL
maintains a clear text version. And I'm sure that even in those
jurisdictions where "it may not be written" there is an official version
of the ritual in the GLs possession.
Post by Jim Bennie
The secrets aren't supposed to be written. The secrets are clearly defined
(in certain versions of the ceremonies). They're not defined as the entire
ritual.
Oregon doesn't really do that with the kind of clarity one would expect.
But noticeably absent from even the cipher are the grips, words and
signs, unless you know where to look and what to look for.
--
L a r r y W
PM, Holbrook #30, AF&AM | RP, Acacia #22, Amaranth
Forest Grove #37, RAM | Tualatin #31, OES
Sunset #20, Cryptic | Dad, Hillsboro #24, IORG
Jim Bennie
2009-05-18 02:36:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry W
Oregon doesn't really do that with the kind of clarity one would expect.
Which is my point, Larry. I'm reading "clarity" -- clear-cut statements
presented as fact. I want to know the source. Is it guesswork? Is it merely
drawing a conclusion? Or is there something written down somewhere which
says "the ritual is secret" and is being quoted?

Jim, Vancouver
Jeffry Petersen
2009-05-18 19:50:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Bennie
Post by Larry W
Oregon doesn't really do that with the kind of clarity one would expect.
Which is my point, Larry. I'm reading "clarity" -- clear-cut statements
presented as fact. I want to know the source. Is it guesswork? Is it
merely drawing a conclusion? Or is there something written down somewhere
which says "the ritual is secret" and is being quoted?
Jim, Vancouver
Here in Florida, we have open books on certain days.
All the words in the rituals, and the obligations, are written
out. A mason can go and read and study them during the hours
this is open. Now, my understanding is that in the several districts,
each one has these 'secrets' written down. I living in St Petersburg,
would have to travel to Tampa to do this.
We have a cipher.
" .... and NEVER reveal ANY of the do daddys of F."

IMHO, would include the ritual. "Unlawfully" obtained..
= finding out secrets from reading whatever you read as
a non mason that someone wrote.. unlawfully... as a mason.

Not even with the consent of the big dog.

It is only allowed with permission of the Grand Lodge that the
secrets are ever to be written.
Doug Freyburger
2009-05-18 19:51:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Bennie
Post by Larry W
Oregon doesn't really do that with the kind of clarity one would expect.
Which is my point, Larry. I'm reading "clarity" -- clear-cut statements
presented as fact. I want to know the source. Is it guesswork? Is it merely
drawing a conclusion? Or is there something written down somewhere which
says "the ritual is secret" and is being quoted?
In the ritual I learned there's a reference to a word that I'm
only supposed to say the way I learned it and a sign that
I'm only supposed to give under limited circumstances.
Those parts are clearly secret even though I've seen them
in books at the library. Everything else in the ritual, it's
up to grand lodge to decide what is and isn't secret. There
are a lot of GLs in the world so there's room for any one
GL to rule anywhere from mouth to ear for their entire
ritual though written out even for the modes of recognition
other than those ones explicitly mentioned in the ritual.

I'm current a member in California and Illinois. California
is a cypher state. Some parts called "monitorial" are
written out so I could theoretically quote them. Most of the
ritual is in code so I could theoretically discuss them in
paraphrase and the GL publishes educational material that
does describe the activities in the degrees. The modes of
recognition are done with underscores, so those parts
aren't to be discussed without first confirming membership.
California clearly has several levels - Secret is floating
point not binary there.

In comparison Illinois is a written state. Nearly all of the
ritual is written out with only the mode of recognition being
underscores. Secret is closer to binary in Illinois. I have
ritual books from more than one other GL that is also
written out.

Because there exist jurisdictions that are mouth to ear
that even forbid cyphers, discussion on this newsgroup
tends to the conservative. While I understand the stance I
find it sad that it limits discussion of what the ritual
*means*. When meaning is lost what remains in gibberish
that needs to be memorized.
K***@hotmail.com
2009-05-05 00:28:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Torence
Our Lodge uses a single piece 24 Inch guage.
As the Lodge Instructor, I find it an effective teaching aid for
ritual as a quick rap across the knuckles gets the i's dotted and t's
crossed.
Maybe we should start calling you "Sister Torence." : )
Torence
2009-05-05 10:18:30 UTC
Permalink
Maybe we should start calling you "Sister Torence."  : )
The gear at an Instructor’s disposal does not stop with the 24 Inch
gauge. Other gadgets are provided to break off the rough and
superfluous bits; and take an unruly student from the erect
perpendicular to the flat horizontal.
David Simpson
2009-05-05 14:40:38 UTC
Permalink
[Default] On Tue, 5 May 2009 04:18:30 CST, Torence
Post by Torence
Maybe we should start calling you "Sister Torence."  : )
The gear at an Instructor’s disposal does not stop with the 24 Inch
gauge. Other gadgets are provided to break off the rough and
superfluous bits; and take an unruly student from the erect
perpendicular to the flat horizontal.
The bind moggles!
--
Regards
David Simpson
(Unattached MM, Victoria, Australia)
Don't relax! It's only your tension that's holding you together.
Jeffry Petersen
2009-05-05 10:16:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Torence
Our Lodge uses a single piece 24 Inch guage.
As the Lodge Instructor, I find it an effective teaching aid for
ritual as a quick rap across the knuckles gets the i's dotted and t's
crossed.
Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon - Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 - Crete, Illinois
PM - Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 - Lansing, Illinois
hahahahahaha :o)

I have so much respect for our lodge instructor. I am paying attention to
him with intensity. He has been a Mason for almost 40 years now, on his way
to get his 40 year pin. He is the only Gold card holder in our lodge at the
moment.
When I listen to him give any of the lectures or charges,
I listen to him as if i were listening to someone play beautiful music. He
is awsome, and a great mentor.
Tonight, he once again did a supreme job on the stairway lecture, then,
right into the charge. I can only hope to be
as good as him one day. His memory is a beautiful instrument from my
standpoint.. and very well tuned.

Fraternally,
Jeffry Allen Petersen
Senior Steward - Saint Petersburg Lodge No. 139
Saint Petersburg, Florida
Bill M
2009-04-29 23:10:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeffry Petersen, SS
Would somebody please explain the significance of
the 12 rings of the bell?
Respectfully, JO :o)
Jeffry
If you're asking about the Third Degree, then it means that it's twelve
o' clock.

Best,
Bill.
Jeffry Petersen
2009-04-30 15:00:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill M
Post by Jeffry Petersen, SS
Would somebody please explain the significance of
the 12 rings of the bell?
Respectfully, JO :o)
Jeffry
If you're asking about the Third Degree, then it means that it's twelve
o' clock.
Best,
Bill.
Thank you Bill

respectfully, Jeffry
Chris H
2009-04-29 23:12:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeffry Petersen, SS
Would somebody please explain the significance of
the 12 rings of the bell?
Respectfully, JO :o)
In what context?
In which part of the world?
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Jeffry Petersen
2009-04-30 15:01:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris H
Post by Jeffry Petersen, SS
Would somebody please explain the significance of
the 12 rings of the bell?
Respectfully, JO :o)
In what context?
In which part of the world?
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
I am in the United States my Brother.
Masonry I have found has layers and layers of
meanings.. each one interest me to the point where
I am about to burst with the need to know factor.
I dont know why.. I feel like I am a sponge, and need
to soak up all the info i can as I head East ... towards
further light.

Brother Jeffry
Doug Freyburger
2009-04-30 00:17:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeffry Petersen, SS
Would somebody please explain the significance of
the 12 rings of the bell?
Bro Jeffry,

Find someone with a nice mechanical grandfather clock. Hang
out for a while until the hour turns over and count how many
times it rings compared to what time it is. Mechanical clocks
are almost always 12 hour models not 24 hour models.

A better question might be the significance of 12 fellowcrafts
matching the number of bells at the two different events in the
story. And how this might apply to the expression "Let me
sleep on it" when facings a difficult decision.
Torence
2009-04-30 14:58:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Freyburger
Post by Jeffry Petersen, SS
Would somebody please explain the significance of
the 12 rings of the bell?
Bro Jeffry,
Find someone with a nice mechanical grandfather clock. ï¿œHang
out for a while until the hour turns over and count how many
times it rings compared to what time it is. ï¿œMechanical clocks
are almost always 12 hour models not 24 hour models.
A better question might be the significance of 12 fellowcrafts
matching the number of bells at the two different events in the
story. ï¿œAnd how this might apply to the expression "Let me
sleep on it" when facings a difficult decision.
And the other tie is to the twelve points of degreework as noted in
another thread as well as the organization of a lodge (should be
twelve officers and not another number) originally based upon the
directions for organizing men found in the Book of Numbers.

Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon - Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 - Crete, Illinois
PM - Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 - Lansing, Illinois
Jeffry Petersen
2009-04-30 17:59:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Torence
Post by Doug Freyburger
Post by Jeffry Petersen, SS
Would somebody please explain the significance of
the 12 rings of the bell?
Bro Jeffry,
Find someone with a nice mechanical grandfather clock. ï¿œHang
out for a while until the hour turns over and count how many
times it rings compared to what time it is. ï¿œMechanical clocks
are almost always 12 hour models not 24 hour models.
A better question might be the significance of 12 fellowcrafts
matching the number of bells at the two different events in the
story. ï¿œAnd how this might apply to the expression "Let me
sleep on it" when facings a difficult decision.
And the other tie is to the twelve points of degreework as noted in
another thread as well as the organization of a lodge (should be
twelve officers and not another number) originally based upon the
directions for organizing men found in the Book of Numbers.
Fraternally,
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon - Auburn Park Lodge No. 789 - Crete, Illinois
PM - Arcadia Lodge No. 1138 - Lansing, Illinois
I just love the way all this is innertwined .. sorta like a spiral..
interwoven and over lapping. This is what keeps
masonry fresh for me as a newer mason compared to some
of you great men. Our lodge gives out the masonic education at each
stated.. and besides informing the newly made members of the obvious .. or
more visual things (such
as giving grand honors and the like), when it is my time to give masonic
lessons, I want to focus on the less obvious to
the eye.

thank you.
respectfully, Jeffry
Torence
2009-05-01 00:42:13 UTC
Permalink
The more I think of it, the more substance of this moment in the
degree would be lost if we were to replace the bell with a cuckoo.

What a liquid ditty floats
To the turtle-dove that listens, while she gloats
On the moon!
Oh from out the sounding cells,
What a gush of euphony voluminously wells!
How it swells!
How it dwells
On the Future! how it tells
Of the rapture that impels
To the swinging and the ringing
Of the bells, bells, bells,
Of the bells, bells, bells, bells
Bells, bells, bells


And So Forth-
Torence Evans Ake
Senior Deacon - Auburn park Lodge No. 789 - Crete, Illinois
PM Arcadia Lodge no. 1138 - Lansing, Illinois
Jeffry Petersen
2009-04-30 14:59:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Freyburger
Post by Jeffry Petersen, SS
Would somebody please explain the significance of
the 12 rings of the bell?
Bro Jeffry,
Find someone with a nice mechanical grandfather clock. Hang
out for a while until the hour turns over and count how many
times it rings compared to what time it is. Mechanical clocks
are almost always 12 hour models not 24 hour models.
A better question might be the significance of 12 fellowcrafts
matching the number of bells at the two different events in the
story. And how this might apply to the expression "Let me
sleep on it" when facings a difficult decision.
Now .. this is what I would love to be answered if this is
the case. Can you put me in the light my Brother ? Do you know the answer
I am looking for?
Are we representing time going by at this point and we
are in .. for the lack of a better term.. suspended time?
as if we are in fast foward while deciding what to do?

Yes, I have alot to learn yet.. I am seeking further light.
I want to turn up my knowledge of these meanings.
Possible masonic education at our next stated.

Brother Jeff
Doug Freyburger
2009-05-05 21:07:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeffry Petersen
Post by Doug Freyburger
A better question might be the significance of 12 fellowcrafts
matching the number of bells at the two different events in the
story.  And how this might apply to the expression "Let me
sleep on it" when facings a difficult decision.
Now .. this is what I would love to be answered if this is
the case.  Can you put me in the light my Brother ?  Do
you know the answer I am looking for?
Are we representing time going by at this point and we
are in .. for the lack of a better term.. suspended time?
as if we are in fast foward while deciding what to do?
Yes, I have alot to learn yet.. I am seeking further light.
I want to turn up my knowledge of these meanings.
Possible masonic education at our next stated.
Bro Jeffry,
Post by Jeffry Petersen
Masonry I have found has layers and layers of
meanings.. each one interest me to the point where
I am about to burst with the need to know factor.
Masonic degrees are based on "Hiramic legend". The
word "legend" in this context is important because of what
the word means to me - Good legend or myth or scripture
should have layer after layer of symbolic and poetic
meaning. Trying to depict good legend as a film of events
that literally happened (Masonic tradition informs us ...
actually took place ...) loses much of that symbolic
meaning. Fortunately, even though ritual is to be learned
by rote it is explicitly symbolic in its lessons. As a result
of being explicitly symbolic I can tell what it means to
me, and if it means something else to you then neither of
us is wrong because there isn't any right or wrong in
seeing meanings within symbols.

I take high twelve and low twelve as night and day not as
the stroke of noon or midnight in terms of the plot of
events. I also take it to mean day time and night time
in terms of crimes committed in broad daylight then
covered up in seclusion. That leads me to viewing the
times as public versus private, open knowledge versus
closed secrets, enlightened action leading to illumination
versus secret action leading to ignorant darkness. In
this view Solomon and the Hirams are grey characters
because they keep a secret hidden.

I take the twelve fellowcrafts on several levels.

The twelve hours of the day or night meaning take your
time when deciding on a morally difficult decision.
Wisdom, like charity, is patient.

The thousands of uninvolved fellowcrafts versus the
twelve who repented versus the three who committed
criminal acts I view as a commentary on the relative
populations of the good men, the tempted men and the
criminal men in our population. But "for evil to triumph
all that the good need to do is nothing" so in spite of
the thousands of uninvolved fellowcrafts what it really
took for the crime to happen is the tempted ones to
not report it to the authorities in advance.

The numbers three and twelve are also linguistic
shorthand for more general numbers of a small many,
a large many, a huge many to me.

With the number three there's an expression
something like "one, two, three, many" that tells me
the conspiracy did not include many at the end. It
was a private secret operation. It started with 15 but
that was too many to sustain in secret so 12 left.

With the number twelve I think about the English
words for number that suggest that the ancients
sometimes used base ten, other times used base
twelve and even twenty. One, two, three, four, five,
six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve all get
their own names. Then there is a different pattern
that sounds like parts of a score - thirteen, fourteen,
fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eightteen, nineteen, a
score can all be thought of as switching to counting
on your toes. English has ten and a dozen both to
mean a small version of many. Modern English has
a hundred (ten tens) and a gross (dozen dozens)
to mean a medium many. Older English even had a
"long hundred" of a dozen tens that mixed the two
bases.

So to me twelve hours between the crime and the
hiding of the crime is symbolic of an inexact small
many length of time, and the twelve tempted
fellowcrafts is also symbolic of an inexact small
many. With hundreds being a medium many and
myriads/thousands being a large many. Yes,
mixing words like "small many", "medium many"
and "arge many" works very poorly in expressing
this. They are mixtures of the "one, two, three, many"
model and the vague-ness of ten versus a dozen and
of a hundred and a gross.

In a way the numbers discuss the concept of orders
of magnitude without details of number bases - How
many digits does the number have as a way of telling
how big it is. Bread box, house, village.

The uses of three, a dozen, thousands teach a Mason
to consider order of magnitude while at the same time
mixing the poetry of the strange English words for
numbers between ten and twenty to show that orders
of magnitude is a way of viewing things that does not
have to be exact to be meaningfull. This goes against
my engineer's training that everything is data and all
data has error bars. While in my engineering a bridge
joins computer networks and in civil engineering a
bridge allows trains to cross a river, this is Masonry.
Among us a bridge is man to man extending our hand
in friendship.

The numbers of the characters at the building of King
Solomon's temple teaches me about the way modern
Masonry works. One brother at a time face to face. An
investigating committee of three. A degree team of one
of two dozen. A lodge of hundreds. A grand lodge of
thousands or tens of thousands. Global Masonry of
millions. The numbers go in orders of magnitude in a
way that isn't exact but that doesn't have to be. From
Grand Master Hiram, I'm glad to meet you. To Brother
Hirma, I'm glad to meet you. Face to face for ill or for
good all of use doing what we hope to be the good, none
of us ever acheiving what really is the good. Ever
striving for better because that's what we can acheive.

That is the path the numbers lead me down when I
contemplate what they should mean to me.

Fraternal regards,
Doug Freyburger
PM 2007-8 Arlington Heights 1162 Illinois AF&AM www.ahml.org
PM 1999 Pasadena 272 California F&AM www.emasons.org
Jeffry Petersen
2009-05-06 13:16:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Freyburger
Post by Jeffry Petersen
Post by Doug Freyburger
A better question might be the significance of 12 fellowcrafts
matching the number of bells at the two different events in the
story. And how this might apply to the expression "Let me
sleep on it" when facings a difficult decision.
Now .. this is what I would love to be answered if this is
the case. Can you put me in the light my Brother ? Do
you know the answer I am looking for?
Are we representing time going by at this point and we
are in .. for the lack of a better term.. suspended time?
as if we are in fast foward while deciding what to do?
Yes, I have alot to learn yet.. I am seeking further light.
I want to turn up my knowledge of these meanings.
Possible masonic education at our next stated.
Bro Jeffry,
Post by Jeffry Petersen
Masonry I have found has layers and layers of
meanings.. each one interest me to the point where
I am about to burst with the need to know factor.
Masonic degrees are based on "Hiramic legend". The
word "legend" in this context is important because of what
the word means to me - Good legend or myth or scripture
should have layer after layer of symbolic and poetic
meaning. Trying to depict good legend as a film of events
that literally happened (Masonic tradition informs us ...
actually took place ...) loses much of that symbolic
meaning. Fortunately, even though ritual is to be learned
by rote it is explicitly symbolic in its lessons. As a result
of being explicitly symbolic I can tell what it means to
me, and if it means something else to you then neither of
us is wrong because there isn't any right or wrong in
seeing meanings within symbols.
I take high twelve and low twelve as night and day not as
the stroke of noon or midnight in terms of the plot of
events. I also take it to mean day time and night time
in terms of crimes committed in broad daylight then
covered up in seclusion. That leads me to viewing the
times as public versus private, open knowledge versus
closed secrets, enlightened action leading to illumination
versus secret action leading to ignorant darkness. In
this view Solomon and the Hirams are grey characters
because they keep a secret hidden.
I take the twelve fellowcrafts on several levels.
The twelve hours of the day or night meaning take your
time when deciding on a morally difficult decision.
Wisdom, like charity, is patient.
The thousands of uninvolved fellowcrafts versus the
twelve who repented versus the three who committed
criminal acts I view as a commentary on the relative
populations of the good men, the tempted men and the
criminal men in our population. But "for evil to triumph
all that the good need to do is nothing" so in spite of
the thousands of uninvolved fellowcrafts what it really
took for the crime to happen is the tempted ones to
not report it to the authorities in advance.
The numbers three and twelve are also linguistic
shorthand for more general numbers of a small many,
a large many, a huge many to me.
With the number three there's an expression
something like "one, two, three, many" that tells me
the conspiracy did not include many at the end. It
was a private secret operation. It started with 15 but
that was too many to sustain in secret so 12 left.
With the number twelve I think about the English
words for number that suggest that the ancients
sometimes used base ten, other times used base
twelve and even twenty. One, two, three, four, five,
six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve all get
their own names. Then there is a different pattern
that sounds like parts of a score - thirteen, fourteen,
fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eightteen, nineteen, a
score can all be thought of as switching to counting
on your toes. English has ten and a dozen both to
mean a small version of many. Modern English has
a hundred (ten tens) and a gross (dozen dozens)
to mean a medium many. Older English even had a
"long hundred" of a dozen tens that mixed the two
bases.
So to me twelve hours between the crime and the
hiding of the crime is symbolic of an inexact small
many length of time, and the twelve tempted
fellowcrafts is also symbolic of an inexact small
many. With hundreds being a medium many and
myriads/thousands being a large many. Yes,
mixing words like "small many", "medium many"
and "arge many" works very poorly in expressing
this. They are mixtures of the "one, two, three, many"
model and the vague-ness of ten versus a dozen and
of a hundred and a gross.
In a way the numbers discuss the concept of orders
of magnitude without details of number bases - How
many digits does the number have as a way of telling
how big it is. Bread box, house, village.
The uses of three, a dozen, thousands teach a Mason
to consider order of magnitude while at the same time
mixing the poetry of the strange English words for
numbers between ten and twenty to show that orders
of magnitude is a way of viewing things that does not
have to be exact to be meaningfull. This goes against
my engineer's training that everything is data and all
data has error bars. While in my engineering a bridge
joins computer networks and in civil engineering a
bridge allows trains to cross a river, this is Masonry.
Among us a bridge is man to man extending our hand
in friendship.
The numbers of the characters at the building of King
Solomon's temple teaches me about the way modern
Masonry works. One brother at a time face to face. An
investigating committee of three. A degree team of one
of two dozen. A lodge of hundreds. A grand lodge of
thousands or tens of thousands. Global Masonry of
millions. The numbers go in orders of magnitude in a
way that isn't exact but that doesn't have to be. From
Grand Master Hiram, I'm glad to meet you. To Brother
Hirma, I'm glad to meet you. Face to face for ill or for
good all of use doing what we hope to be the good, none
of us ever acheiving what really is the good. Ever
striving for better because that's what we can acheive.
That is the path the numbers lead me down when I
contemplate what they should mean to me.
Fraternal regards,
Doug Freyburger
PM 2007-8 Arlington Heights 1162 Illinois AF&AM www.ahml.org
PM 1999 Pasadena 272 California F&AM www.emasons.org
My brother, thank you for this most excellent reply.

Respectfully in service,
Jeffry Petersen, SS
Saint Petersburg, Florida, Lodge 139
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